Equal pay/ treatment

[VelvetSpoon]

I was discussing this earlier in the week woth some colleagues (in light of the Tesco case) and it has reawoken a lot of my internal anger over this issue.

I know that I have been paid less than men for years. I have always worked in places where discussion of salaries was a disciplinary offence. But I knew others mainly men were paid more for the same job.

It's not just the pay. I've been a single parent for years, no family support. I used to regularly get threatened with disciplinary action if I ever arrived to work late. I was told that my team didn't take me seriously and complained about me because I was a parent. I NEVER asked for not was given a single concession to the fact I had kids.

A few years on and people I work with
now (mainly men) are all working from home or leaving early for theor kids swimming galas and presentations at the drop of a hat. And it really pisses me off that as a single parent (none of them are) I never had any of these concessions.

Plus they earn more than me. Which according to the discussion with my colleagues is because I'm a poor negotiator. Not because men get offered more pay, or join the company in a more senior position (when I joined I was told I couldn't join at X level. 3 months later, 2 men joined...at that level!). Oh and when I tried to explain that being a lone parent (No family, and no money from their father) is a really vulnerable position, apparently that's no worse than it is for men who are the breadwinner while their wives are SAHMs.

AIBU to be annoyed by this conversation, how I've been treated in the past and indeed the whole fucking situation? I earn a lot, so I know there are women on £20k a year who are much worse off than me. But I was earning £30k in 1998. Twenty years on, I'm still not earning double that (whereas my male peers are on £75k And up)

velvet

Do you think any men were paid less than you for the same role?
If so, why? Why were they deemed less worthy?

Is it as simple as confidence in negotiating - so something about the employee - or the people in charge only paying people like them more - so an employer issue?

(I've never worked in an industry where I've had to negotiate a pay rise - except now, I think....)

Wow of women arguing against equality.

Op from your post yes you have been discriminated against and I would be pissed off too.

I'm not aware of any men being paid less. I can't be entirely certain because of the restrictions on salary discussion. But from what I do know those in equivalent roles have been paid more than me for many years.

I can't tell you the reasons why my employers deem that appropriate. I can say that I have better academics, more experience and greater tech expertise. In terms of my skillset for the role I am better qualified. But I am paid less.

Op I hope your company has to publish its pay gap so all this can be laid bare.

We don’t need men to hold us back do we? It doesn’t sound like women had a choice to work in the warehouse and didn’t know the roles had different pay that may have impacted if they had a choice. At least in the warehouse you don’t have to smile and be pleasant to the general public.

VelvetSpoon sadly all I can offer you is fellow feeling. The sad thing I see is that a lot of the discrimination is also perpetuated by women managers.

It isnt about negotiation skills. I havent seen men negotiating better salaries I have seen them simply being offered them. The assumption being that a job being done by a man is de facto better than a job being done by a woman.

As you describe, a man coming in late after dropping his DCs at school is applauded. A women doing the same thing is disciplined. A man wanting to leave to attend Parents Evening is met with congratulation. A woman wanting to do the same thing is met with eye rolling.

" I can say that I have better academics, more experience and greater tech expertise. In terms of my skillset for the role I am better qualified. But I am paid less.."

Because of an abrasive personality and a determination to be the victim in every situation?

How do you qualify academics (isn't that a group of academic people - do you mean qualifications?)?

How do you quantify tech expertise?

You're pulling me up accusing me of something I never said I did! I think that's pretty poor. But whatever.

VelvetSpoon You’ve still dodged the question, I see. Hence my assumption that you didn’t. So, did you alert your bosses every time you were going to be late?

I note you haven't commented on the fact that whilst it was unacceptable for me to ever be late, even occasionally, it's acceptable for a man to be late every day.

Actually, I did. I said it’s unacceptable for anyone, male or female, to be frequently late.

I focused on you because you started this thread talking about you being late. It’s like when you pull a kid up for doing something wrong and they go “But Jimmy’s doing it too!” What Jimmy is doing is irrelevant; we aren’t deflecting and talking about him and neither are your bosses.

Your bosses rightly shouldn’t discuss anyone else’s lateness with you, and you shouldn’t attempt to make them either. They discussed your lateness and how unacceptable it was, yet you still continue to be frequently late.

So if this man is frequently late, how do you know they haven’t discussed it with him and he’s carrying on being late just like you?

lesDeuxAlps dont be obtuse. It is quite clear what the OP meant by academics in the context of her post. Given some of the comments you have made (including directed at me) you are hardly in a position to criticise someone else's choice of phraseology.

This is not an employment tribunal. The OP does not have to produce certificates to justify her claim of tech expertise.

WhatToDoAboutThis2017 I disagree, how others are treated in the same situation is relevant as it sets what is accepted within a particular place of work. If men are allowed to be late but women arent then that is discrimination.

GnomeDePlume Like I said, the OP has rightfully been pulled up on her lateness yet still continues to be late.

So she has no idea if this man has also been pulled up on his lateness yet still continues to be late.

There gets to a certain point in your career that academic achievements are not as valuable unless you need to keep up to date with re-certifications etc.

As for tech experience, depends on the tech as well and how valuable that tech is needed by the company or how cheaply it is to bring in someone with the equivalent experience.

What if op is right? Loads of workplaces discriminate against women. Why would hers be anything different?

I don’t understand this need to pick her apart, to prove to yourself she is not being discriminated against and is in fact less competent, reliable or professional than the men she works with.

Loads of workplaces discriminate against women. Why would hers be anything different?

Because variables do play a factor in what someone is paid, that is not discrimination. The BBC ended up increasing the salary of more men than it did women recently after much outcry on here about sexism.

I earn a lot more than some men in my department, some men earn more than some other women in my department, there are many variables for this scenario, just like most of the companies out there.

If there’s nothing to see here how has the Tesco thing got to court? Why does the government expect organisations to publish their gender pay gaps if it’s just variables between individuals?

I’ve earned more than some men, so what? Some women earning more than some men doesn’t mean anything. The outcry wasn’t on mn, it’s across the world regarding women’s pay.

If there’s nothing to see here how has the Tesco thing got to court?

It hasn't got to court, it has been submitted to ACAS which is the first rung of the ladder, it is not about discrimination based on gender they are trying to conflate the jobs as being equal.

Why does the government expect organisations to publish their gender pay gaps if it’s just variables between individuals?

Because pretty much every respected study into the gender pay gap has shown it is down to variables (some that need addressing) and not as prominent that has been presumed, publishing the figures helps with openness going forward which is a good thing

The outcry wasn’t on mn, it’s across the world regarding women’s pay.

Didn't say it was just on MN, but the fact that more men received a pay rise has meant that the outcry has somewhat been brushed under the carpet somewhat.

If companies stuck to pay grades for jobs and then paid a bonus for performance in the job, there would be fewer problems. The performance targets would be agreed and the pay grades established by comparison of jobs to each other. All this male macho negotiation should be removed from the workplace.

The Ford car seat seamstresses won all these years ago because their work was of equal value when compared to the work of the men on the production line. It’s nothing to do with working conditions. It’s more to do with skill and value added to the process. You cannot make cars without seats. It takes skill to make them. This skill can be evaluated and comparisons made to other jobs in an organisation. This is identical to the Tesco claim. The checkout skills could be the same or they could be less. We don’t know because it appears they have not been evaluated properly. Sometimes educational qualifications count and sometimes they don’t. It depends if the job needs them or not.

The reason many women do badly in the workplace is the threats surrounding discussion of salaries and the clubbiness if men. This inevitably means pay rates are unfair and discriminate against women. If it was honest and open, everyone would know where they stood. Pay grades for jobs would stop this negotiation nonsense too. The more experience you get, the higher you go up the grade subject to performance. It’s about time women woke up to these practices that discriminate against them and start to do something about it. The ball will start rolling then! Just publishing a pay gap does nothing. An evaluation of jobs is the important bit.

Companies get away with discriminatory pay because they claim it is all down to 'variables'. The question is how relevant are those 'variables' when it comes to assessing value of a role?

Are the variables part of the selection/recruitment/promotion process or are they only used to justify discrimination?

Most people arent stars in the show where variables may be relevant and negotiation is key. Most people are in the chorus line where variables are less likely to be relevant to the performance of the role.

Pay grades for jobs would stop this negotiation nonsense too. The more experience you get, the higher you go up the grade subject to performance.

The bbc followed the pay grades, and the result has shown that it wasn't a gendered issue with more men receiving a salary increase.

Your also ignoring one major factor in the ford case, Fords defence was that seamstresses where not a skilled labour which is obviously rubbish, hence why they lost.

The tesco issue is wanting equal pay for different work, the jobs are open to all and if more women choose to prefer to work in the supermarket than the warehouse then that is a variable, but does not necessarily point to discrimination nor sexism.

If you are doing the same job - yes pay should be the same regardless of anything - although does get complex with year experience etc but a member of staff doing the same job with the same number of years experience should be equal.

What made me exasperated the other day was a a report on news about Easyjet saying its pay gap was wrong as the pilots (mainly men) were paid more than the cabin crew (mainly female) - totally different jobs, with different qualifications etc. What needed to be looked at was female/male pilot pay not comparing just average male and average female pay across the whole company!

Best way to get a pay rise is to get a better job offer from another company. If your current employer values you, they’ll match the offer; if they don’t, leave.

If you are doing the same job - yes pay should be the same regardless of anything - although does get complex with year experience etc but a member of staff doing the same job with the same number of years experience should be equal

Years of experience is irrelevant if you can learn to do a job within months, and taking length of service into consideration also potentially discriminates against women. There is a lot of ignorance on this thread. A company the size of Tesco with so many roles should have been using an objective job evaluation process which would have ensured that employees were receiving equal pay for work of equal value in accordance with the law.

What made me exasperated the other day was a a report on news about Easyjet saying its pay gap was wrong as the pilots (mainly men) were paid more than the cabin crew (mainly female) - totally different jobs, with different qualifications etc. What needed to be looked at was female/male pilot pay not comparing just average male and average female pay across the whole company!

There’s some value in that though if it helps address why it is that there are so many more men bumping up the figures due to more of them being pilots. Given you don’t need a penis to fly a plane it is a concern that there aren’t more female pilots and it’s still seen as men’s work.

If the gender pay gap was just down to “variables” why do those always seem to operate to create a gender pay gap that disadvantages women? If it was down to “variables” it would be more 50/50 surely.

Below 35 don't women earn more due to better education? Then it dips off as women take time off work and step back from being so job focused?

Gnome, you are spot on that men don't have to negotiate much of the time. There's an assumption that men work harder, this is in an office setting so I'm not talking about physical work. That women aren't interested in a career and have a man to support them so aren't too bothered about pay.

The posts by lesdeux and whattodo highlight the sort of shit women like me get for asserting themselves. And assuming both those posters are women, how instead of empowering each other we bitch and put each other down.

Saying I'm abrasive because I will respond in kind to rude posters- if I was a man you wouldn't make that comment. Men are allowed and expected to be assertive. Women are derided for this. Called difficult and harridans. I used to work with a male manager who never said a sentence that didn't contain a swear word. In the same office an official complaint was made (by a man!) about me using the word shit. Because he didn't think it was becoming for a woman to swear...

Quantifying technical expertise in the role I do is pretty straightforward, and I know because of the experience I have, and the background the men have, that mine is superior. I'll wait to be told that's arrogant. Because again women shouldn't be confident in their own abilities.

And what, I haven't continued to be late. If trains are delayed, there's an accident on the road, then I'm late. Just like every other person is. It's unavoidable. However I no longer have to worry about childcare so it is less of an issue.

But posts like yours just highlight how shit it is to be a working woman. Oh you can blithely say men are treated the same. Newsflash. They aren't. The guy I work with, late every day. Originally he discussed changing his work hours to start and finish later. But then decided not to. So he just turns up as and when. Meanwhile I had years of struggling to get my kids to their CM by 8, to get to work by 9. And even though I was never more than a few mins late, and always told whoever I needed to, cap in hand that I was very sorry I would be in at 9.03, it was ALWAYS a major issue. I would be fucking hysterical some days because a bus wouldn't turn up, running down the road with my kids. I would be hyperventilating that I was late again for the second time in a month. Knowing I would get shit because of it. That I would be criticised by my childminder for dumping my kids and running, by my employer for being late. I found myself chasing a bus down the road more than once, banging on the door begging to be let on because otherwise I'd be late. Have a think about how desperate and worried you have to be to behave like that.

Funny I've never seen a man have to do any of that. I've also never seen a man with children disciplined for lateness, or refused time off for a sick kid, or school play or whatever.

Men and women are not treated equally in the workplace. That's the simple truth of it. Pay is just one part of that.

^I would be fucking hysterical some days because a bus wouldn't turn up, running down the road with my kids. I would be hyperventilating that
I was late again for the second time in a month.^

Do you behave the same way at work?

Calm, cool and collected give an air of professionalism and it goes a long way.