Equal pay/ treatment

[VelvetSpoon]

I was discussing this earlier in the week woth some colleagues (in light of the Tesco case) and it has reawoken a lot of my internal anger over this issue.

I know that I have been paid less than men for years. I have always worked in places where discussion of salaries was a disciplinary offence. But I knew others mainly men were paid more for the same job.

It's not just the pay. I've been a single parent for years, no family support. I used to regularly get threatened with disciplinary action if I ever arrived to work late. I was told that my team didn't take me seriously and complained about me because I was a parent. I NEVER asked for not was given a single concession to the fact I had kids.

A few years on and people I work with
now (mainly men) are all working from home or leaving early for theor kids swimming galas and presentations at the drop of a hat. And it really pisses me off that as a single parent (none of them are) I never had any of these concessions.

Plus they earn more than me. Which according to the discussion with my colleagues is because I'm a poor negotiator. Not because men get offered more pay, or join the company in a more senior position (when I joined I was told I couldn't join at X level. 3 months later, 2 men joined...at that level!). Oh and when I tried to explain that being a lone parent (No family, and no money from their father) is a really vulnerable position, apparently that's no worse than it is for men who are the breadwinner while their wives are SAHMs.

AIBU to be annoyed by this conversation, how I've been treated in the past and indeed the whole fucking situation? I earn a lot, so I know there are women on £20k a year who are much worse off than me. But I was earning £30k in 1998. Twenty years on, I'm still not earning double that (whereas my male peers are on £75k And up)

Re the Tesco/Asda situation are missing the point about equal pay for jobs of equal value. Ignoring this legislation has allowed these employers to create 'womens work' (lower paid) and 'mens work' (higher paid).

At recruitment events all potential employees attend the same events/processes. The entry level is the same. The difference is that the vacancies in warehouses are filled almost exclusively by men. The store roles are filled in the main by women. The recruits are not given so much choice in this - they take what is offered.

Also, by filling warehouse roles with men because of the heavy lifting involved, the employers are able to perpetuate unsafe working conditions (eg lifting heavy weights above the head). If more women were offered these roles the employers would be forced to address these conditions.

The problem with the Tesco case is that if they could fill the warehouse with staff paid the same as the store they would. They get paid more because recruitment dictates the salary. The same as the lorry drivers that are paid more than those in the warehouse. It confuses the issue rather than supporting equal pay.

Equal pay doesn’t have to be for the same job. It also covers Work of equal value or Work rated as equivalent.

Right, but there’s a massive difference between sitting at a checkout for eight hours and lugging stuff around in a warehouse for eight hours.

One is more physically demanding and deserves pay to reflect that.

Working on a checkout is probably much more stressful that working in a warehouse and requires customer facing skills. Why does it deserve less pay? Is it because it is predominantly done by women?

Were you letting people know you'd be late or just Turing up late? I suspect pre warning will also be a factor in why they're ok with some and not others

@Gnome

What? You're a H&S inspectors wet dream!

You say that the warehouse is dangerous (yet argue that it doesn't deserve higher pay). That it's difficult but that adaptions should be made at cost to the employer for women to do the job that men are currently doing. You think it's unfair that men who can do the job are recruited over women who can't?

@Procrastinator

"Working on a checkout is probably much more stressful that working in a warehouse and requires customer facing skills."

Would you like help packing?

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How many bags did you use?

Stressful? We clearly have different definitions of the word. "Customer-facing" in Tesco requires nothing but a smile and the ability to 'get my manager'. Checkout staff have no autonomy and the vast majority have no ability to even interact with the customers. Lets face it, if your job can be done by a machine (self-service tills) you're hardly highly valued.

ironically and shooting my own argument down, I'm waiting for peer reviews on a paper about AI in automated warehouses

I've actually worked in a supermarket long ago, I was part of a group of temporary Xmas staff hired for a 6 week period. All women in our group were given jobs in the store. The men were allocated to the warehouse side. I had no idea we were paid differently until later. We were all hired in the same process. Why wouldn't we be paid the same? We were also night workers, and at that time all of us got slightly more per hour than the day staff although I know supermarkets have now removed this distinction.

I was at that time physically fit. I could have worked in a warehouse. I could lift beyond the manual handling limit with ease. I'm sure there are plenty of women now who could too.

Also as pp said are physical jpbs worth more than non physical ones? Shouldn't it go on skill required, be that physical or mental? But in any event those roles should be offered to both sexes, women shouldn't be shoved into the customer facing roles and paid less for the privilege!

Back to my current situation, I make it clear what I do. Some men do, some don't. At least one man in our company who makes a big performance of what he does, but I'm told is regarded as a joke by management, is significantly less qualified than me, and earns £15k a year more.

But I'm sure that's all my fault.

And how do I change It? I am told every year at pay review, I've got the 'best available' pay rise, normally 1-2%. But the men started on more so I can NEVER catch them up. Do I call my manager a liar? Insist on more money? And if they refuse I have to be prepared to leave.

But I can't leave because I've got a family to support on my own. Jobs in my field are not abundant. So I am, like many other women, stuck.

confused it was the simple fact of me being late my employers would not tolerate. Even though it was the exception not the rule, and I was only ever 5-10 minutes late. I was taken to task and told I could not be respected by my team because of it. That is a disgraceful statement and there's np way to justify it.

By contrast I work with someone now who arrives at 9.30 on an early day. Sometimes as late as 10. Because he's a man and he has the oh so difficult job of taking his DC to childcare his persistent lateness is not just tolerated, he is almost celebrated for doing his bit with his DC.

It's utter bullshit.

VelvetSpoon Your employers shouldn’t have to tolerate you or anyone regularly being late and are well within their rights to discipline and/or fire you for it.

If you can’t make it to the job on time regularly, for whatever reason, you can’t do that job.

I think they’re right in that if someone is regularly coming to work late, their team will respect them less. That’s pretty obvious.

(I also think the very fact that you never even alerted them that you would be late is disgraceful.)

Some attitudes on this thread are depressing. Regarding the specific outcomes of the Tesco case, I’ll await the judgement. But it’s depressing that the “woman’s work” is spoken about by some as lesser than the “men’s”.

If the indicator as to how much people got paid was the physical nature of the work manual labourers would get paid more than likes of lawyers and accountants and yet I doubt that happens much 😏

One is more physically demanding and deserves pay to reflect that
Thereby perpetuating the injustice that work normally perceived as 'men's work' is automatically assumed to be worth more than work more typically done by women. Heavy lifting is worth more than soft skills, being outside is worth more than dealing with difficult people all day, manual labour is worth more than care work. Etc.

I wonder if Tesco would be able to get people working in the warehouse if they didn't pay as much?

If there are lots of people who can do a job applying for a role, you're going to pay less than if there aren't as many people applying for another needed role. Supply and demand in the job market.

Saying that - no doubt both checkout and warehouse operatives will soon lose out to robots and artificial intelligence.

Boulshired truck drivers get paid more because they have different and scarcer qualifications (HGV licence) plus other qualifications if required to carry more dangerous goods.

Warehouse for supermarket is take goods off racking and put on pallet/in cage, in the store lower paid workers take the goods off the pallets/cages and put them on the shelf. Where is the big difference?

What on the occasions every 4 or 6 weeks (which you term regular by I don't) when I was stuck in traffic and realised that even if I ran from the bus stop I would be inescapbably 5 mins late I told my employers.

I didn't say I hadn't told them. Where do you claim I said that?

They didn't care if I told them or not.

You are clearly the sort of poor manager who thinks it's more important someone is at their desk at 8.59 without fail than if they work their lunch every day and are highly productive but occasionally due to traffic are a few minutes late. How is being a few mins late on rare occasions not being able to do your job? Yet the man who is 30 mins late every day now never faces such accusations?!

VelvetSpoon can you find another job? You have my sympathies.

lesdeuxalps You dismiss the value of work done on the shop floor and apparently in the warehouse. Perhaps you shouldn't be commenting on work place issues.

"But I can't leave because I've got a family to support on my own."

So, similar to a working man with a SAHP then? I thought you didn't like the comparison!

"If the indicator as to how much people got paid was the physical nature of the work manual labourers would get paid more than likes of lawyers and accountants and yet I doubt that happens much"

It's simple supply and demand.

If I want someone who can lift heavy stuff to a certain height then I need stronger taller people. If I need someone with a protected title or years of education in a specialist field then I need someone who matches these criteria. If there's only one person in the world who can do a job then she can charge whatever she wants. If anyone can do it then they're pretty much valueless and get the legal minimum wage.

@CharlieSierra

It seems that for your argument to work, you're saying that men can't do "care work" etc. That sounds sexist to me. Have I misunderstood?

"Heavy lifting is worth more than soft skills"

Yes. Pretty much anyone can scan barcodes at a Tesco checkout. Far fewer people are able to or want to work in a physically demanding warehouse.

Glad to see you understand the difference.

VelvetSpoon You dodged a pp’s question when they asked that, so I got it from there. If you did always alert them, fair enough.

You may not be late every day, but you are late too frequently to be acceptable. The same goes for anyone, male or female.

What makes you think I’m even a manager, let alone a “poor” one? There’s no need for insults just because you don’t like being pulled up on your behaviour.

I wonder what customer service people get at Tescos? That must be a job that requires skills that Tesco should be prepared to pay for.

Ignoring this legislation has allowed these employers to create 'womens work' (lower paid) and 'mens work' (higher paid).

What rubbish, women are free to apply to work in the warehouse and vice versa.

Warehouse for supermarket is take goods off racking and put on pallet/in cage, in the store lower paid workers take the goods off the pallets/cages and put them on the shelf. Where is the big difference?

Making sure you pack x amount of pallets per hour, using machinery and working 12 hour shifts to name a few. Unpacking one rack of pallets at the supermarket is not done via the same intensity as those having to pack the pallets at the warehouse.

lesDeuxAlps heavy lifting in warehouses is dangerous when it isnt managed correctly ie using correct machinery. Well managed warehouses do not require very heavy lifting. It is not supposed to be a weightlifting competition

Store work is a lot more than pushing goods through the checkouts. Shelves do not stack themselves. Goods do not come off the backs of the trucks on their own.

The people taking the goods off the trucks at the store are paid minimum wage . The people putting the goods on the trucks at the warehouse are paid significantly more and are almost exclusively male. All of these people work for the same company and are recruited with the same level of qualification.

Keep in mind that for Asda this has been through many layers of court all of which have agreed that discrimination is taking place. They are still fighting this because it is going to cost them a lot of money

You're pulling me up accusing me of something I never said I did! I think that's pretty poor. But whatever.

I note you haven't commented on the fact that whilst it was unacceptable for me to ever be late, even occasionally, it's acceptable for a man to be late every day.

Even ignoring the obvious gender bias, it is unrealistic to think no one is ever a few minutes late, and the bigger picture is surely more important ie how well some one does their job, and how many hours in total they do.

The team I managed respected me die to the fact my technical knowledge and experience was greater than anyone in our dept. However the narrow minded gender biased manager tried to persuade them to say I was a poor manager because I was a mother and not regularly at my desk by 8.30.

I have been looking for another job however there isn't much in our field. Hence I am stuck. Even though I know I should be paid more, and my employers are hugely gender biased, I can't afford to call their bluff over pay because I don't have another job to go to.

This thread is ridiculous. The warehouse work is not all lifting! It's more using forklifts than physical. Women can apply for those positions aswel if they like.

I have been looking for another job however there isn't much in our field

Doesn't that partly explain pay?

However the narrow minded gender biased manager tried to persuade them to say I was a poor manager because I was a mother and not regularly at my desk by 8.30

That is really crap - and I bet he's not the same about any fathers who aren't at their desk by 8.30 - assuming there are fathers who actually do the school run.

I really hope this century starts seeing a change in how part time / none 9-5 workers are seen - and that males and females start doing similar roles and jobs.

The lack of alternative roles doesn't explain how male colleagues are paid £10-15k more. And we're regularly told how successful the company is. At the top people (mainly men of course) are on 6 and 7 fig salaries.