Feminism on MN confuses gender equality with men and women being the same

[Bookwormqueen]

Why is it hard for people to conceive that men and women may have innate differences in the way they behave and their preferences etc? After all they are different physically and in their hormones, so is it so difficult to see that their brains may be wired and function differently aswell?
Why does anyone who expresses that they may have different preferences get accused of holding sexist views? To be fair, I only find these views very prevalent on MN and I find this quite naive
I believe in gender equality, but I also believe each gender has its strengths and weaknesses (physically and emotionally) and these differences should work to complement each other rather than competing and trying to be the same in the name of feminism

brain features correctly predicted subjects’ sex about 69–77% of the time

Right. So what about the remaining 23-31% of kids? Soaking up the messages from society that because they’re A they’re more likely to do A things. Or being constantly bought toys for B not really aware that they might like A’s toys because well it’s not really an option.

70% isn’t really a solid basis to build the pink blue divide that we have.

Because here’s the thing, if boys are 20% more likely to prefer Tonka trucks than girls are, they’re not given Tonka trucks 20% more of the time but 100% of the time.

That part is well-documented. There have been a couple of famous studies where adults consistently gave toys according to perceived sex.

You really do not seem to understand.

It is not the case that the brain cannot be sexed. It is a limitation of MRI, if they could have cut the brains open it is much easier than and MRI which is quite noisy

Because here’s the thing: 92% of FPS games are played by males, 94% of viewers of beauty gurus are female

There are people demanding 50/50 in all things male with no reason to suspect that a sufficient number of women desire such a thing

Because here’s the thing: 92% of FPS games are played by males, 94% of viewers of beauty gurus are female

And that is your proof for innately sexed brains Really?

It is not the case that the brain cannot be sexed. It is a limitation of MRI, if they could have cut the brains open it is much easier than and MRI which is quite noisy

Do share your expert knowledge of differences that can be seen on dissection, but not on MRI.

92% of FPS games are played by males, 94% of viewers of beauty gurus are female LOL. And what conclusion to do you draw from this, Professor? Did you find a little pink homunculus in the girl brains when you did your imaginary dissections?

And that is your proof for innately sexed brains hmm Really? hmm

Oh sweety, were there too many words for you above? I have noted many many ways male and female brains are different, if you refuse to acknowledge you are a special kind of stupid

92% of FPS games are played by males, 94% of viewers of beauty gurus are female LOL. And what conclusion to do you draw from this, Professor?

That men and women have different preferences..did you not read what I said?

Oh dear, mawalls. Are you very young?

92% of FPS games are played by males, 94% of viewers of beauty gurus are female LOL. And what conclusion to do you draw from this, Professor?

That men and women have different preferences..did you not read what I said?

But you're concluding that those preferences are entirely innate. That's the problem.

Kids choose what's on offer to them, and they'll choose games/videos featuring people that resemble them.

You're also failing by your own earlier sarcastic logic of "not all .." There are LOADs of women who hate beauty but have been subtly pressured into it.The female concern for beauty is in no way more innate for women than it is for men.

Perhaps people follow and take an interest in the things that their peers do so that they feel integrated and can make friends.

Oh sweety, were there too many words for you above? I have noted many many ways male and female brains are different, if you refuse to acknowledge you are a special kind of stupid

No, you have cut & pasted and linked to various studies, several of which contradict the points you think you are making. And, every time someone challenges you on a point of fact, you insult or obfuscate, because you don't understand the science.

is OP from Swim England? Probably wants all women to be re-educated so that we can understand the male perspective

Or is it another trans thread ?

Great posts @IfyouseeRitaMoreno

Here is an interesting analysis of gaming by sex. It provides the evidence behind the 92% that Mawalls is claiming (although it quotes 7% of women, not 92% of men). I thought it's conclusion was spot on:

It’s also easy to read the genres in the chart and pin the cause solely on gender differences in gaming motivations–e.g., women simply don’t like X or Y game mechanic, but there may be a lot more going on. For example, games on the bottom of the chart tend to not have female protagonists, tend to involve playing with strangers online, and tend to have a lot of rapid 3D movement which can lead to motion sickness (which women are more susceptible to). Low female gamer participation in certain genres may be a historical artifact of how motivations and presentation have been bundled together and marketed.

I am a female gamer, I get motion sickness, I object to games with male only protagonists, women as background sex objects and sexist online communities. Unfortunately all are very prevalent.

I reject the idea of a male/female brain, as a female with some traditionally "male" interests. I work in a STEM career. I had mostly male friends as a teenager and in my 20s. I partipated in male dominated hobbies. It wasn't unusual for me to realise that I was the only woman at my weekly club pub meet up, for example, and I didn't give it a second thought.

However, I don't believe for a second that it makes me "less" female. When I became a mother I went naturally from that to all female baby groups, girly nights out and spa days. Because the basis for my relationships is the stuff I have in common with people, not their sex or gender.

@nooka

I'm a gamer, I even play first person games, but prefer stealthy games with non-lethal options and vents to crawl through.

Way back when I was young most of the girls I went to school with played videogames. Most of them seemed to drop out of it after about 13ish - just about when boys, make up and so on became the acceptable things to be into and games became a boys thing.

Anecdotal, I know, but I do find it worrying that these divisions between what boys can like and what girls can like seem to becoming more strongly defined rather than less - and 37 years ago when I was in nursery only boys were allowed to play in the wet sand, girls in the dry sand and so on which seems crazy looking back but it feels like things are worse now. And this obviously isn't inherent, this is cultural and largely down to marketing. Nobody thought Lego was for boys when I was a small child, now we have to have Lego Friends and Elves to persuade girls it's ok for then to play with it but girls brains haven't changed in the last 30-40 years.

DO you reject the notion of male/female muscles,Q angles, ligament attachments, livers?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sex_differences

Do you believe male and female primates have been tainted by advertising as a reason there are sex differences for plush over wheeled toys?

Do you think boys are 10x as likley to be dyslexic because th eprimarly female staff mistreat them?

Is it that you are ignorant of the fact that anatomical differences exist
or are you ignorant of the different hormones in men and women?

Or do you acknowledge that they are structurally difference and run on different fuel but think they will produce identical outcomes. If so; how do you account for the behavioral and emotional difference encountered by those injecting estrogen or testosterone or what of those with 5alpha reductase deficiency who are raised as girls but feel and behave like men?Or CAH or any other sex disorder?

God this is tedious.

Men and women are innately different. Yes. Agreed.

In what ways, to what extent, is another matter.

Let me ask you a question.

Do you believe that every single behavioural difference between men and women is down to genetics?

No I don’t believe that every single difference between men and women is down to biological differences between the sexes. Of course there is huge variation between personalities which accounts for a lot of differences, just as there is wide variation in physical appearances within women, aswell as between men and women i think a lot of you are inferring things which I blatantly haven’t said to strengthen your argument

''Do you believe that every single behavioural difference between men and women is down to genetics?''

Nope

FYI the monkey studies you’re citing aren’t as clear cut as you’re making out. The inference of the females and the red cooking pot is obviously daft - monkeys don’t cook!
The “plush” toys bit. The females liked both types of toys (boys and girls) equally 50/50. If you’re going to leap from that to human interests in that jumpy way that you like to do then maybe girls are interested in both but are pushed out because boys are more interested in one and people like yourself like to push everyone into neat little gendered boxes.

PS. There are many synonyms for plush btw.

Good. So which particular aspects do you think are down to socialisation and what can be done to lessen it?

I thought feminists were more likely than the woman on the Clapham omnibus to argue that there significant biological differences between the sexes, given that said biology is at the heart of women's oppression?

Can you quote some feminists who think that a man is essentially a woman with a penis stuck to their crotch?

Perhaps there is an issue of definitions here. Like I said if feminism means simply gender equality/equality of sexes, I’m all for it, 100 percent. If it means women are free to make whatever choices they want that’s great. However what I disagree with is the sort of ‘militant feminism’ that I often see on MN. The sort that asserts there should not be acknowledgement of innate differences between men and women, hence any differences in preferences, lifestyles etc should not be respected. For example I see a lot of disrespect for women who have chosen to be SAHMs longer term on here, or women who have simply taken on more ‘nurtuting’, home maker roles in their lives. I think that militant feminism has actually created an opposite pressure on women, very different to the pressure of patriarchy, but a pressure nonetheless. Why can’t women just make whatever choices they want without being judged?
A PP implied that women would be wary of choosing a more SAHM role in life, because of the risk of being left financially ruined if their marriages ended (a popular view on MN). Whilst I can agree with this up to a point, isn’t it psychologically unhealthy to live our lives always preparing for the worst?
Should women just not be allowed to relax a little, be free to make their choices, unburdened by societal pressures/expectations be they chauvinism or militant feminism? Why do we not hear men casting constant judgement on each other if what they should or should not do?

I wonder if there are any racial differences between humans.

Would that discussion be allowed on MN the same way this gender one isbeing permitted?

For example I see a lot of disrespect for women who have chosen to be SAHMs longer term on here, or women who have simply taken on more ‘nurtuting’, home maker roles in their lives

These types of discussions are mainly on AIBU/CHAT

And not many women on there say whether they are feminist or not

I don't disagree with your point...its just im not sure its a feminist thing as such

OP, I really think you're misunderstanding feminism. And I'm sure that if you went on FWR and asked (in a non-judgemental way) if being an SAHM was anti-feminist the answer would be a resounding "no" with the caveat of "make sure you're secure financially in the case of divorce" (unromantic but realistic)

Feminism isn't just about giving women the same professional opportunities as men but about getting society to give more value to those traditionally female-dominated spheres.

It's patriarchy that devalues women's work, not feminism. There's a fantastic book called "Who cooked Adam Smith's dinner" that you should read to get a fuller view of what feminists think of SAHMs.

It's also worth remembering that feminists, like women, are not a homogeneous group.