The Bulger killers: was justice done?

[WannaBeWonderWoman]

Following on from previous thread which was filled.

What would have been the correct way to deal with these little boys who subjected a tiny two year old to protracted agony and unimaginable suffering then?

Interested to know what all the bleeding hearts on here believe should have happened? Whether they attended an adult court and were convicted of murder which they confessed to anyway, was this crueller to them than what they put that child through? They were well treated and even when they were serving their 'sentence' they were protected and given all they wanted (more than they would have got if they'd been in their own homes probably) and had all the help and therapy it was possible to give them. Did they suffer? You could actually argue that they benefitted from killing. They have to live with what they've done, yes, but if they did I find it hard to comprehend that Thompson especially (who came across as the leader in the interviews) can.

The Norwegian case which is often compared to this is nowhere similar IMO. The perpetrators were a similar age to their victim. They were 6 which is almost half the age V&T were and they wouldn't have been tried here anyway. Most importantly that crime was not premeditated or drawn out for hours like the many horrors inflicted on James.

He was the only victim here.

Was an 8 year sentence in a children's home where they were treated very well (even able to indulge in sex with the staff as teenagers) too harsh then?

My god do you really think children's home staff who indulge in sex with their charges are treating them well?

Adriene she talked about the other victims, such as the boys and the parents in all this, which i found totally disrespectful to James and his parents. The real victim is James, who will never walk this earth again.

As a result of what these boys did. When she talks about victims, all I can think of is that poor little toddler at the mercy of two nasty and wicked boys and the suffering he must have endured at their hands.

The my child won't do it because I'm a good parent attitude because it's more frightening to think well actually some people, even children can commit a crime like this regardless of outside factors

Well said. So many arrogant people on last thread refusing to accept children can be born with these tendencies and its not all about nurture like abuse, neglect. Its far more complex than that. Its not about children being born "evil" but with personality traits that wont be fully expressed until they grow, including psychopathic traits - e.g. lack of empathy. And whilst people are saying they arent defending Venebles and Thomson it does come across like that at times, in an attempt to "understand" why children would commit such a horrific crime. My sympathies lie fully with James family.

Can people PLEASE stop writing out specific details of the abuse James suffered? We really don't need to keep seeing it

Cista no-one has done that here as far as I can see so not sure what you are referring to...maybe the other thread??

Aridane If any of my children committed a crime of this magnitude at the age of 10, I certainly would have supported them through the court process and would have visited them while they were detained however hard that may be.

I would have fully supported them being detained for life as well, my child or not, I would not have wanted them released, not only for the safety of the public due to them being so disturbed at that young age that I don't feel they could ever be 'rehabilitated' or trusted but I would not want the family of their victim to know that they are free when they never will be.

As for 'rehabilitation' working for Thompson, we don't know that and never will. Where did the information come from on that seeing as he has a new secret identity which no one is supposed to know about other than what is planted in the media? The only reason we know anything about Venables is because he outed himself isn't it?

I feel that JV is a ticking time bomb waiting to explode and nobody is doing anything about it. Even he has said he wants to go back to prison. Its like Warbouys, they let out these offenders too soon, because of that, they hurt and kill again. Some have been highlighted in the media of offenders killing or raping after their release, when the still posed a danger to the public, but the Police and other services never did anything about it until it was too late.

The man that killed Milly Dowler comes to mind, it is said that he probably killed Lin and Megan Russel.

Though I don't think the original sentence for killing Jamie was long enough, I do agree that rehabilitation was worth trying once ... but not repeatedly. The ghastly history of mistakes made by the Parole Board, two of them in this case alone, suggest to me that it's simply not fit for purpose and needs urgent reform, along with a lot else in our judicial system

There comes a time when the safety of the public should stand above all other considerations, and to those who insist that prison is damaging in itself I'd point out this: it prevents further offences at least while they're locked up

@Sugarcoma Denise requested that people refer to him by his name James, not Jamie. IIRC Madeleine McCann’s mother also request that people not call her Maddie.

I would be more concerned about Thompson Aeroflot to be able to 'move on' and live a normal life after committing such atrocities is more disturbing.

They were children, I feel the sentence was correct. A child is not a adult, and should not be tried as such.
Thompson is proof as is Mary bell, that rehabilitation can be successful. With venables clearly rehabilitation didn't work so I don't agree with giving him endless chances, he's an adult now and must answer for his actions as such, but it was right to give them a chance.
They were children themselves.

To think that JV will be out in a few short years, still in his 30s and could potentially have children with someone who has no idea who he is

Was justice served for James and his parents? No.

I don't think Mary Bell is comparable tbh, she had a truly horrific childhood, neither of these boys did.

But I do agree with you lady.

Although I wish JV would stop being allowed out of prison now, he will always be a risk to the public.

The psychiatrist on the programme said that the development of the frontal lobe of the brain which deals with morality only starts to happen during puberty. As with any other developmental milestone, some people will reach it sooner than others. Before that, a child can say that it's wrong to do something, but he's only parroting what he's been told, not actually experiencing the feeling for himself. So the boys knew that what they did was wrong at the time they did it only in the sense that they'd get into trouble if anyone found out.

He was asked if it was a theory and replied, 'No. That is a fact. The frontal lobe is not fully developed until the end of puberty.'

Read Lord of the Flies. I've never thought the basic premise of the book was too far-fetched to be credible. Given a particular set of circumstances and a particular combination of personalities, it could well have happened.

I'm not saying that all children are capable of this sort of monstrous crime. Or that these two would have grown up into normal adults. They were both already 'problem children', for whatever reasons. I do wonder if one on his own would have done it. Or, if they hadn't found James on that day, they would have gone on to kill another child on another day, or thought up some other 'game'. Or whether Venables was always destined to be a paedophile, or he was sexually fixed at that point because of the enormity of what happened.

All this is an attempt to find out why they did it, not to excuse a horrific crime.

No, I don't think they should have been tried as adults because they weren't adults. They were children. We don't try the mentally unfit. They're described as 'unfit to stand trial'. The same applies to children whose brains have not fully developed to the same capability of adults.

Denise requested that people refer to him by his name James, not Jamie

That was my fault, too, for not realising ... but I'll remember in future

And I know this has been said countless times and expecting an answer's probably futile, but why does it keep being implied that Thompson's built a normal life, kept out of trouble and all the rest?

How do posters saying this actually know?

Agree with Skarossinkplunge. Lost me at 'bleeding hearts'.

felloutofbed I’m shocked that you could say that there were three child victims in this.

Lumping the perpetrators of this horrendous crime with the poor child who was tortured and murdered and calling them victims. Victims of what? An upbringing that wasn’t hugely different from one that many many children in this country have. T and V chose to carry out this terrible crime and it’s this and the sadistic nature of the murder that sets them apart from other children who had similar upbringing, and indeed from other murderers.

One of the interviewing officers said that the level of evil involved would stick in his mind forever and looking at the offences that V has since committed, he’s not wrong.

BTW I also agree with a PP who said that, next time Venables is released, he'll probably realise there's nothing left to lose and kill another child

And then all we'll hear is "lessons will be learned ... "

Was an 8 year sentence in a children's home where they were treated very well (even able to indulge in sex with the staff as teenagers) too harsh then?

I don't know where you got this from but if it's true how can being groomed and then sexually exploited by the adults in charge of you and who were supposed to be rehabilitating you possibly be described as being "treated very well"?

I think is easy to assume that getting 'justice' in the legal sense should match human justice, for want of a better word, and it simply never will. It just can't.

If I was James Bulgers mother, I would want life in the truest sense of the word. I would want them to never know a moment of peace. I would want them to die in prison.

If I was Venables or Terrys' mother, I would try to believe with every grain of my being that rehabilitation could still work. As their parent, I would want that. Right or wrong.

Venables must now be locked up for life, he's a paedophile who can never be cured of his urges. The fact that despite his previous crimes, sentences and supposed rehabilitation he had hidden a laptop behind his headboard and downloaded images of child abuse involving young children, babies and toddlers as well as a 'paedophile manual' demonstrates how dangerous he continues to be to any community. More dangerous than before as he's now an adult man in his mid 30s who will clearly take any chance he can to harm another child.

Every community has children living in it, the fact that he could be released again with anonymity is outrageous. He must be locked away for the rest of his natural life, never to come in to contact with another child and with no internet access to contribute to the abuse of children online either.

I've signed Denise Fergus' petition and fully support the call for a public enquiry. I suspect what has come to court and been reported over the years is the tip of the iceberg with Venables. From all I've read I still see him as the likely ringleader in the murder of James but the full truth of that can never be known now.

I believe both Venables and Thompson should have served at least 25 years. It's harrowing to read Denise's fear for her younger three sons when Venables and Thompson were released after only 8 years, beside herself with anxiety they could return to Merseyside under their new identities at any time. She should have been able to raise her family in to adulthood knowing they were behind bars.

I think is easy to assume that getting 'justice' in the legal sense should match human justice ... and it simply never will. It just can't

While that's true in principle, isn't this a question of balance? Short of judicial killing - which I personally don't agree with - I realise nothing would suit some, but then moving too far in the other direction doesn't seem to have much public support either

Though each case is different, we've somehow got to find a way that will bring confidence to the majority

I posted on the other thread. No justice was not done. IMO they should have been imprisoned for life, yes, even at 10.