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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The Bulger killers: was justice done?

999 replies

WannaBeWonderWoman · 08/02/2018 00:07

Following on from previous thread which was filled.

What would have been the correct way to deal with these little boys who subjected a tiny two year old to protracted agony and unimaginable suffering then?

Interested to know what all the bleeding hearts on here believe should have happened? Whether they attended an adult court and were convicted of murder which they confessed to anyway, was this crueller to them than what they put that child through? They were well treated and even when they were serving their 'sentence' they were protected and given all they wanted (more than they would have got if they'd been in their own homes probably) and had all the help and therapy it was possible to give them. Did they suffer? You could actually argue that they benefitted from killing. They have to live with what they've done, yes, but if they did I find it hard to comprehend that Thompson especially (who came across as the leader in the interviews) can.

The Norwegian case which is often compared to this is nowhere similar IMO. The perpetrators were a similar age to their victim. They were 6 which is almost half the age V&T were and they wouldn't have been tried here anyway. Most importantly that crime was not premeditated or drawn out for hours like the many horrors inflicted on James.

He was the only victim here.

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Samcro · 09/02/2018 22:54

the norway case was chilling, 2 weeks later and the kids are back at school.......WTF
yet its used as the "look how much better they did" on here.
horrific that parents just sucked it up and allowed their kids to be in school with those kids\before you slate me .....read the bulling threads on mn,

WannaBeWonderWoman · 09/02/2018 22:55

babyccinoo that's because the media did not report on that crime the way the UK media reported on James' murder. In fact they hardly reported on it at all.

Qvar I am sure at 17, and being the deviant he is, Venables was a willing participant. Abuse is taking it a bit far. The guard was not prosecuted. I was making the point that they hadn't really missed out on anything they would have had if they had not been detained.

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babyccinoo · 09/02/2018 22:56

Those 3 boys also never planned to abduct a much younger child with the sole aim of killing them as was reported that T&V tried to lead away a toddler they planned to push under a bus before they abducted James.

It was 2 boys, not 3.

And I'm not convinced V&T planned to kill. Their 2.5 mile walk was meandering, without a clear destination. I think in some way they would have been relieved if an adult had removed James from them. Sadly, it was not to be.

I'm ashamed to be part of a society that sees a child with bumps on its head, crying and in distress and yet decides not to get involved because it's nothing to do with them.

babyccinoo · 09/02/2018 22:58

babyccinoo that's because the media did not report on that crime the way the UK media reported on James' murder. In fact they hardly reported on it at all.

Agreed.

Someone upthread said papers made millions off poor James' story. If there was any justice, they would be made to donate that money to a children's charity in honour of James.

WannaBeWonderWoman · 09/02/2018 23:01

It was 3 boys. Two 6 year olds and a 5 year old. Why don't you educate yourself before your correct me babyccinoo

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Lizzie48 · 09/02/2018 23:05

@babyccinoo But V and T were approached by adults. They lied, said JB was their brother! They could easily have walked away then, why didn't they??

WannaBeWonderWoman · 09/02/2018 23:05

The fact that they admitted trying to lead another toddler way a few hours before they took James with the intention to push them under a bus doesn't convince you then?

The lied to a passerby that they were taking James to the police station when questioned also that he was their brother who they were taking home. Does that fit in with them being relieved if someone took him off them.

In last night's programme, it was said that the site where James was found was very close to Thompson's home and 'den' he frequented.

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MissEliza · 09/02/2018 23:18

I think in some way they would have been relieved in an adult had removed James from them. You have no way of knowing that. What utter rubbish. People are actually inventing stuff now to excuse these boys.

tiddliewinkiewoo · 09/02/2018 23:20

I find threads like this vile tbh. Posters from each side making wild claims about what should have happened/what actually happened.

Unless you were involved in the case as a professional (and not an armchair detective) then you have NO idea. We are (supposedly) a civilised society and have laws in place that doesn't take into account the views of armchair experts Hmm

Ignorant posts such as the lenient sentence (take it up with those who make the tariffs) Venables has for viewing child abuse - the judge gave the maximum sentence for that crime. He went on to explain the life tariff.

It's disgusting how far some people will go to try and prove their point.

Guess what? You don't KNOW any facts apart from what's given in a biased rag, and you should leave it to the professionals who actually have experience of the judiciary and those who have worked with offenders, whether adolescents or adults.

ZanyMobster · 09/02/2018 23:20

Babyccinoo - I really do hope you're right re the longer sentence. I can't begin to imagine how the Bulgers would feel if he is released after just a couple of years again.

SuperBeagle · 09/02/2018 23:27

It was 3 boys. Two 6 year olds and a 5 year old. Why don't you educate yourself before your correct me babyccinoo

The Norwegian case involved two boys, and the girl who was killed. Where have you plucked a third boy from?

TabbyMack · 09/02/2018 23:41

"Abuse is taking it a bit far. The guard was not prosecuted. I was making the point that they hadn't really missed out on anything they would have had if they had not been detained"

So, you'd be perfectly fine if a 17 year old girl had a sexual relationship with a teacher, would you?

And, frankly, of all the dimwit rubbish you've spouted on this thread so far, the notion that T&V hadn't really "missed out on anything" while detained truly takes the biscuit.

TheBrilliantMistake · 09/02/2018 23:44

I think some people are confusing the ability to tell right from wrong, with the aptitude to understand the gravity of an action - which is why children are not deemed fully culpable.

Most children aged 10 will know that a pan can be hot, or playing near roads is dangerous, but they are particularly dangerous environments for children because they make immature / irrational choices.

We as adults sometimes make similar bad decisions, but by the age of adulthood, we are deemed to have sufficient capability to rationalise quite well (on the whole). Children do not yet have that ability. They can show remarkable levels of maturity sometimes, but are far more prone to persuasion, fear, lack of perception etc.

The issue of premeditation is a much more complex one in a child, as 'setting out to take a child' or 'to harm a child' isn't quite the same (in a child's mind) as the 'murder' we as adults would interpret it as.

Imagine a child who wants to play with fire. To the child, it's a curiousity about fire, not a desire to commit arson per se. We know that lighting a match and seeing what it might do when it burns something is so dangerous, but the child doesn't always comprehend that. When the house burns down, the child genuinely did not set out to burn it down, nor did he comprehend the consequences of setting fire to the curtains. Events 'escalate' quickly.

We might never truly know what went through their minds on that day (they might never know themselves), but it is not unimaginable to think that events got ahead of them. They had been shoplifting earlier in the day, playing truant from school and stealing batteries and paint. They attempted to 'take' another child a little earlier, but failed, then came across an opportunity with James. It has been suggested they had talked about pushing a kid in front of a vehicle on road. Horrific in the eyes of an adult, and at least nasty in those of a 10 year old.
Did they intend to kill? we might never know, but if they were so keen, they equally had ample opportunity earlier to kill - yet they didn't.
Without going into too much detail, there were incidents along their journey that ebbed an flowed between bullying / cruelty and not knowing what to actually do with a child. In my own view, this is where things escalated in the irrational minds of two children.

At least one of the children had witnessed both parents attempting suicide, and violence in the home amongst siblings and parents - including knife attacks and alcoholism and the total loss of a home due to a fire. The other had two siblings with learning difficulties, and already had learning difficulties of his own, along with a reputation for aggression in the classroom. The three young siblings had been left alone at home a few years earlier which required police intervention to ensure their safety.
This type of background for young children doesn't necessarily equate to a sure fire pair of killers, but it does expose a troubled history and suggests in part, they were not your average pair of loveable young rogues. These were children bordering on feral. They weren't born that way, they became that way.

What they did was horrific. Why they did it is confusing and contradictory. But I think we at least have a small glimpse of how they came to be that way.

WannaBeWonderWoman · 09/02/2018 23:53

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/somethind-died-with-silje-does-the-killing-of-five-year-old-silje-marie-redergaard-by-her-own-1444162.html

There it is SuperBeagle. Quite easy to find.

So anyone who has a different view to you is a 'dimwit' Tabby. Keep those claws in lovie, it's just a debate no need for personal attacks.

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lalalalyra · 09/02/2018 23:57

Someone upthread said papers made millions off poor James' story. If there was any justice, they would be made to donate that money to a children's charity in honour of James.

I think the media coverage is particularly important in this case as well when you think that it was the Sun who were so determined to be seen to be doing something to help James' family.

The cynic in me can't help, but wonder just how involved they'd have gotten if James had been from a different part of the UK. One they weren't frantically trying to win back.

echt · 09/02/2018 23:58

So anyone who has a different view to you is a 'dimwit' Tabby. Keep those claws in lovie, it's just a debate no need for personal attacks

If this is a debate WannaBeWonderWoman with no place for personal attacks, why did you designate those who don't agree with as "bleeding hearts"? Those would be people with a different view to yours.

SuperBeagle · 10/02/2018 00:00

I've only ever seen two boys referred to, and in every article I just checked, it only refers to two 6 year old boys (and the mother only ever refers to two boys), so I'm assuming that the Independent article has it wrong when they refer to three boys.

Follyfoot · 10/02/2018 00:02

Off topic, but I detest it when one woman tries to insult another by calling her 'love' or 'lovie'. Let's leave sexist patronising comments to men eh?

TheBrilliantMistake · 10/02/2018 00:07

It's as patronising as someone saying 'leave it to men'.
This is a serious thread discussing a serious subject. I don't think it's helpful to start assuming it's any specific gender who behave this way.

TabbyMack · 10/02/2018 00:08

Your opening post contained an insult, Wannabe you have literally no interest at all in exploring this issue, you simply want to try and pretend you "care" a bit more than anyone else does.

Using a murdered baby and his mother to do that is repellent, frankly.

Lovie = meh. I can't feel patronised by someone like you. Sorry.

WannaBeWonderWoman · 10/02/2018 00:10

Well then you need to look up the meaning of 'personal' echt. 'Bleeding hearts' was a general observation and not directed at one person.

Follyfoot I often call my DS's and DH 'lovie' so not really interested in what you detest the term and yes, that was off topic.

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ScattyCharly · 10/02/2018 00:12

I think they should never have been released. WjAt happrned was simply too bad for them to have got released. That’s not to say they should have been kept in adult prison once they turned 18. I’d have preferred to have them in a facility which they were not allowed to leave the grounds but not one in which they were like adult prisoners in a standard prison.

BakedBeans47 · 10/02/2018 00:13

OP from your very first post you clearly had no interest in debate or actually wanting to know how people think. The sneery reference to “all the bleeding hearts on here” makes that clear.

echt · 10/02/2018 00:19

Well then you need to look up the meaning of 'personal' echt. 'Bleeding hearts' was a general observation and not directed at one person

Your OP invites, on the surface, a discussion, but then you are abusive of those whose opinions you specifically invited. At best, goady.

*Follyfoot was not off-topic, you used a patronising sexist word to diminish a poster's points. The fact that you call your husband and sons by this name is irrelevant, its general application is recognised as one used when addressing a woman.

WannaBeWonderWoman · 10/02/2018 00:20

I'm sure many other people 'care' about this case than me Tabby.

Your assertion that I am using James and his mother to prove that on an anonymous forum (to who exactly?) which I am just responding to, after I called you out on a personal attack makes you a bit more than 'repellent' frankly.

I only started this thread as I saw the TV program by the same name and I came across the other thread where there were many posters complaining about how T&V had been treated. I am surprised it kept going.

I am entitled to my own view as is anyone else.

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