The Bulger killers: was justice done?

[WannaBeWonderWoman]

Following on from previous thread which was filled.

What would have been the correct way to deal with these little boys who subjected a tiny two year old to protracted agony and unimaginable suffering then?

Interested to know what all the bleeding hearts on here believe should have happened? Whether they attended an adult court and were convicted of murder which they confessed to anyway, was this crueller to them than what they put that child through? They were well treated and even when they were serving their 'sentence' they were protected and given all they wanted (more than they would have got if they'd been in their own homes probably) and had all the help and therapy it was possible to give them. Did they suffer? You could actually argue that they benefitted from killing. They have to live with what they've done, yes, but if they did I find it hard to comprehend that Thompson especially (who came across as the leader in the interviews) can.

The Norwegian case which is often compared to this is nowhere similar IMO. The perpetrators were a similar age to their victim. They were 6 which is almost half the age V&T were and they wouldn't have been tried here anyway. Most importantly that crime was not premeditated or drawn out for hours like the many horrors inflicted on James.

He was the only victim here.

I’ve said it before, for me the hardest thing to get around was why?
There was nothing, absolutely nothing to gain from this terrible murder. Utterly senseless. I didn’t really want to watch this documentary but I feel as a parent that I have a duty to. I hope Denise gets more money for her charity, in her lovely sons name. James will achieve more in death than this vile pair ever will do in their pathetic false lives . RIP James.

Jemima - there was a judge and jury. They had lawyers and solicitors. They got a pretty good deal I would say eight years for taking possibly eighty of James.

The only child in this case who had their human rights breached was the one sobbing and dying on a railway line without his mummy after being sexually assuaulted, blinded with paint and stoned.

I totally agree jedi such a terrible, needless, senseless waste and destruction of so many lives - especially poor James and his family - for what?

Totally with you there tengreenbottles poor poor little boy

@WitchesHatRim did you see the interview this morning? That really isn't what the lawyer said, he really only said if it was his child he would be fighting/shouting as loud as the Bulgers are however that as a lawyer he is saying that the procedures need to be followed etc. He didn't really say that he was backing them, just that they had his sympathy. I am guessing he probably does agree with them but knows the reasons why that won't happen or isn't practical. I think he was very careful with what he said.

That article is misleading and does take it out of context quite a bit. I thought he came across well and was generally quite factual about Venables, the one thing he said that came across with true emotion was that 'he was a convincing little liar'. What a tough job he had, this case has had such a huge affect on so many people involved in it, the liaison officer of the Bulgers was on at the same time, it sounds as if her whole career has been affected by how tough the case was for her.

@Elendon - that article you linked to was really interesting to read although there are reports in Ralph Bulgers book and other articles that contradict quite a few things said there, in particular about some of the facts not being included in court, this was confirmed by a police officer involved in the case as far as I am aware so not 100% everything in that article is factually correct. We will never know the full truth of course.

I was 13 when this all happened and then, and for many years I believe the boys should have been locked up for life. Now having children myself, including a 10 yo now I can see that it wouldn't have been the right thing and that them being trialled as adults is awful however I don't believe they should have been released when they did, it wasn't long enough IMO, they should have been in some sort of secure unit as adults which I totally understand is not necessarily possible.

A lot of people seem to misunderstand about the latest sentence Venables has been given, the judges report explains it all and says it is the longest sentence he can give. It's all down to the parole board now who, IMO, have done a pretty shitty job so far when it comes to Venables.

I'm torn about this. I used to believe that they were 'only children with horrific home lives etc'. That was until I worked in a children's home, where staff were expected to put up with abuse and no consequences for behaviour, because 'it's their childhood causing it'. I'm sorry that might be a reason - it does not mean it is an excuse, that it is to be expected and that the child in question deserves sympathy.

At the same time, no normal well adjusted child would do or behave like this. They clearly had screwed up backgrounds, and to some extents were victims themselves. This does not mean they were innocent, and that they didn't deserve punishment and rehabilitation (or attempted). What had gone on in their young lives to make that seem normal?! They were products of their backgrounds. Same as that child (more young adult, at 16) in the children's home. Their backgrounds made them like that, that does not mean it's ok. They needed boundaries, rules, needed to learn right and wrong. But the death penalty? For 10 year olds? Jesus wept. How about the death penalty for those that made those two boys like that, instead

Loobyloo

I take issue with your suggestion that it was not similar. It was similar in that children murdered another child. Of course that's similar because it shows children displaying very unusual behaviour. Killing another child.
The rehabilitation of the 2 that killed the little girl was successful. The fact that the community felt that everyone was responsible should be considered as a mature and reasonable response.
This thread started with the question 'how should these 2 boys have been treated?' I put this forward - you don't need to split hairs.
I don't think it helps anyone to make 2 children stand trial as adults- simply because they weren't adults.
Its far more difficult to look at ourselves to ask how things like this happen- much easier to look 'out there' - that's where all the evil is...truth is we should all be looking at ourselves and how we treat people

Yes the 10 yr old deserve that death penalty made

In the case of Jon Venables, justice was not done. Nor was rehabilitation.

The only child in this case who had their human rights breached was the one sobbing and dying on a railway line without his mummy after being sexually assuaulted, blinded with paint and stoned.

No one disagrees that the greatest wrong by far was done to James but do people really not see the importance of learning lessons as to how this case was handled? Not just for the sake of these 2 who most people don’t give a fuck about but for the future?

Sleeping I asked you a question earlier which you haven't answered. I want to.aak it if you again and to those of you who think state sanctioned execution of children for murder would be a good thing. Here it is:

Let's assume we're in some parallel universe where children who kill children are executed by the state. How would you feel if one of YOUR children killed another child? You'd happily hand them over to be killed by an executioner or the victim's parents to kill your child with their bare hands, which is what some of you say you'd want to do if your child was murdered?

If I had raised an evil sadistic child abusing piece of shit then yes go ahead. I couldn’t stand by my child if they had done to a child what those depraved fuckers did to James.

Janey I thought that at first. I was also under the impression that Thompson had the much tougher background and trauma history. Venables seemed to have less chaotic parenting. However, Thompson AFAIK has not reoffended. Possibly being tougher means having more willpower and therefore better able to resist impulses? I am in no way justifying Venables, I think they should castrate him, but porn and paedophilia can be compulsive disorders.

I was 14 when this happened & vividly remember how disturbing I found this, even at 14 the thought of this baby frightened & asking for his mummy made me cry. Now, as a mother it breaks my heart-I've just sobbed through the ITV programme.
I'm not sure what they should have done with them tbh, I do know that I honestly think they are pure evil.

Why do posters on here think that locking up serious crime offenders is the answer??
It doesn’t work. Half of the reason to sentence offenders us to 1. Rehabilitate & 2. To punish.
However, the system does not work because prisons are overcrowded, underfunded therefore fail to rehabilitate which is why there are repeat offenders.

They murdered a little boy, Do I need to go in to all of the gorey details, Obviously a sympathiser? Do you sympathise with one of them repeatedly offending?

There is a difference between sympathising and wanting the law to be followed. I think what those boys did was horrific - I was 4 when they killed James and now I have a 9 year old DD of my own - and they definitely needed to be locked away, but I don't think they deserve the extreme public reaction that they have received purely because their ages made their crime noteworthy and the media and political involvement whipped up the public into a frenzy.

They deserved to be tried and punished for their crime, but it should have been in exactly the same way as any other offender on trial for murder. They were not treated like any other 10 year old offender, if they were they would have been dealt with in juvenile court, their names and pictures would not have been splashed all over the media and the Home Secretary wouldn't have used political influence to affect their sentence.

They murdered a child, and received a life sentence with a minimum of 8 years in custody. They were given the standard sentence for their crime ... the only difference was that their minimum custodial tariff was set at 8 years - to take into account their extreme youth at the time of the crime - when the average murder will earn a minimum of 15 years custodial sentence. You cannot demand they are given a more severe punishment purely because they were children.

I do think that they should have been given more stringent licence conditions and I do not condone Venables' behaviour when released and his subsequent offending but I do think they deserved to have at least one chance to show they had been successfully rehabilitated, and for 9 years Venables appeared to have been rehabilitated before he reoffended, but rehabilitation is not a cure and is no guarantee that an offender will never commit a further crime so you cannot lock up people forever "just in case" the rehabilitation doesn't work.

At age 10, they may well have been able to be rehabilitated, as Mary Bell was. But I think maybe after a certain age that possibility becomes less remote

Why do posters on here think that locking up serious crime offenders is the answer??

So what do you suggest? Let murdered and rapists walk the streets?

• murderers

Chocolate because they should be PUNISHED, They took a little boys life, He isnt here anymore because of them and died a brutal death by them.

I dont care if you take issue tbh Chocolate

There is no comparison

They were much younger
They also did not go out looking for a victim

A 6 year old would have absolutely no understanding of the consequences of killing someone else in comparison to a 10 year old

What was the same in the two cases?

So heartbraking, James was nearly saved. Respect to that poor woman who came forward to say she saw the boys. I imagine she feels guilty, she was never to know the outcome of course.

Melj1213 - Venables did not appear to be rehabilitated for 9 years, there are many reports saying he broke multiple bail conditions throughout that time, he was only caught for the more serious crime due to him calling the police as he believed his anonymity was compromised and then they found his hard drive. I am fairly certain the images weren't just something he downloaded just that day.

I totally agree that an attempt to rehabilitate is required however he should have been back in prison way before 2010. The fact he was only in 2 years was unacceptable. He clearly wasn't rehabilitated and this has been proven yet again with a more serious crime committed than the one before (obviously excluding James' murder).

How does murdering a child bring about justice? Would you sit there in your cell afterwards feeling satisfied at the gruesome death you caused them? Reliving and finding pleasure in the gory details of how you took their lives? Would you be thinking of their own mothers?

You do realise that as an adult, the desire to murder a child (even one you think is pure evil) to bring about a sense of justice is at best ironic and at worst... well utterly terrifying as to what you may be capable of.