Pharmacist's religious/moral objection to emergency contraception

[lilly0]

A while ago I went into Boots to buy the MAP. The pharmacist on duty wouldn't prescribe to me for religious reasons but pointed another pharmacy to me no biggy I thought but then I thought about it. Why would a pharmacist object to emergency contraception it isn't an abortion pill they don't seem to mind selling condoms and dispensing the pill ?
Is there any reason not to sell the MAP ?

Bet it was a male pharmacist too!

"The pharmacist was male" knew they would be!

"I wonder what the company thinks about losing sales." Good point

"How can a pharmacist refuse to sell you MAP on religious/moral grounds when a B and B gets fined/sued for refusing a room to a gay couple for the same reasons?" I suspect because the first affects women and the latter iirc affected a gay male couple. There was I think a similar case raised by a lesbian couple around the same time that was unsuccessful.

"But hey, it's only women that suffer the consequences of this 'conscientious objection', so who gives a shit?" Exactly

"Plenty of other people to obtain emergency contraception from - even if you’re young and vulnerable. In some areas school nurses will prescribe and/or dispense it. There are sexual health clinics in most towns. There is rarely only one pharmacy. GPs will prescribe it. It’s hardly difficult to obtain." Yes it is in some places! In the county I live in there are some very remote villages who don't even have a gp service now due to cuts, let alone a pharmacy! ALSO due to cuts we have a MUCH reduced sexual health service, only available 2 half days a week and limited appointments available next nearest 90 mins away by train. You're clearly LUCKY enough to live in a fairly urban area there are MANY parts of the U.K. That AREN'T as well serviced by medical or pharmaceutical facilities.

"The right to religious freedom was probably harder fought and certainly cost more lives than the right to contraception or abortion." You think? What about how many women have died as a result of pregnancy and childbirth and backstreet/DIY abortions? Who are STILL dying of these in countries where there isn't contraception/abortion easily available? Those who've committed suicide or been murdered due to being unwillingly pregnant? But then women's lives and health don't matter eh 🤔

One misunderstanding I'd like to address though - it's not just certain Christians that object to abortion or contraception there are other religions that do too.

If the pharmacist doesn't want to take the map, pill, use an iud, get an abortion due to their religion fine, but they have no right to inflict THEIR religious beliefs on others more so via a secular business that ISN'T theirs.

"do you think all doctors should have to be willing to profrom abortions?" All gynae/obs surgeons yes, and all Gp's to refer too. It's THEIR religion not the patient's. Many of those that won't sort abortions, map or IUDs WILL happily provide the regular pill, condoms, viagra, implants etc which the SAME religions say are also sinful - they're cherry picking and being unbelievably hypocritical.

They might not be our own but if we believe people have a right to their beliefs, then we should allow religious beliefs too - unless in reality we are only tolerant of non religious beliefs.

That's the point though - they're NOT the op's beliefs and she was the one taking the map!

"However, these are awkwardneses" try "extremely anxiety inducing and necessary" for some women/girls who may be abuse/rape victims - ok to make THEM feel shit?

"that they are being asked to be involved in ending a life. That is how they see it. " then they shouldn't be doing the job! It's NOT their body NOT their choice. There are thousands of other medications that can also be abortifacients that are prescribed and dispensed to females of child bearing age, females who may not even know they're pregnant - are they going to insist they all take a pregnancy test before THESE are dispensed?

"It isn't a right which is inflicting pregnancy" actually that's EXACTLY what it is.

"which actually isn't impacting on someone else's choice" yes it is. It is NOT the pharmacists decision to make.

"You dont need a pharmacist to dispense condoms... so its neither here nor there" no don't NEED but most chemists DO sell them and I'm willing to bet this arse would have NO problem doing so.

All those pp saying "what's the problem? Op can get it elsewhere" what if the next pharmacist also refuses? And the next? And it's a bank holiday weekend so no gp no sexual health clinics open and won't be until it's too late? What then??

"Some people seem to think that their rights to access MAP extend to everyone in society having to say and believe that MAP" I don't but I don't think it's professional for the pharmacist to block the legal right of the op to buy and take it. If he were to refuse methadone to an addict or anti depressants (some religions believe addiction and mental illness don't really exist or should be dealt with by prayer) he'd soon be sacked!

"That might be uncomfortable if you think you might be pregnant when you don't want to be" not just uncomfortable - for some women/girls just being pregnant could be life threatening

Chocolatewombat your posts are so deeply misogynistic and judgmental I used AS to see if you were a man. You post as a woman but I'm still not completely convinced if I'm honest.

TOLERATING religious belief does NOT mean being willing to be oppressed by SOMEONE ELSE'S belief system and accepting it affecting YOUR choices.

And BELIEFS aren't JUST religious - why should someone else's religious beliefs trump MY belief in MY right to bodily autonomy and sexual equality?

"I know we will differ in views about who should decide if that is a life and if it can continue or not. It comes back to those questions in the end doesn't it. It's that age old question about a woman's right to choose or someone else's right to be involved in deciding for a life (if you think it's that) which cannot choose for itself." It's certainly NOT for a pharmacist to decide, in the uk it's the pregnant/potentially pregnant woman's choice. That's the law - his beliefs don't supersede the law!

"but I wouldn't try to stop anyone else having one" (an abortion) - but this pharmacist arrogantly thinks they have the right to make a judgment on the op's choice.

"It’s amazing how all these exemptions only affect women isn’t it?

They never seem to impinge on men’s healthcare" - yea funny that eh!

"IME it's surprising how quickly these "strong principles" can become rather more flexible when it's a question of perhaps losing work ..." Doesn't surprise me at all

"It smacks of just being obstructive and judgmental to me." Yep

Also pharmacists are NOT just retailers in a specialised market, they're part of the nhs I believe?

So the way around this is to push the MHRA to reclassify MAP as a General Sales List medication like canesten and nexium. That way women are not reliant on a pharmacist to dispense it. There are literally NO medical conditions a woman might have which would make progestogen only EC unsuitable. It cannot disrupt an existing pregnancy. It cannot be taken too many times. It is safer than most GSL drugs including paracetamol. In other countries women do not have to have a consultation with a pharmacist before it can be sold. So let's get rid of the pharmacist involvement altogether and if they don't want to sell it, someone working on another cash desk can. Job done.

It is pretty hard sometimes to get the MAP. When I was a teen I had it. I lived rurally with my parents and I didn't want them to know about my sex life. I didn't have a car. If I'd been turned away from where I got it from I'd have been stuck. I didn't have the opportunity within the time period to go walking about trying to get the MAP. I had to walk 4 miles as it was to get to the clinic.

Also pharmacists are NOT just retailers in a specialised market, they're part of the nhs I believe?

No, they are not part of the NHS unless they are employed by an NHS hospital, CCG or other NHS organisation. If they work at Boots, they are employed by Boots. If they are locums they are self-employed. If they own their own shop they are self-employed.

It's THEIR religion not the patient's. Many of those that won't sort abortions, map or IUDs WILL happily provide the regular pill, condoms, viagra, implants etc which the SAME religions say are also sinful - they're cherry picking and being unbelievably hypocritical

It's more likely to be their own moral code rather than blindly following the dictats of a religion. Most Catholics are fine with condoms and use them quite happily. But a great deal more would feel horrified by abortion because their own moral assessment kicks in.

If your moral compass tells you it's wrong to end a pregnancy then it doesn't matter where that pregnancy is taking place - to facilitate the ending of it is the problem. They don't want it on their conscience that they did it.

It's absurd to say that because the OP doesn't share that belief, the pharmacist should act differently. Now that would be hypocritical.

They are part of the NHS in that NHS money funds all their dispensing activities - they are not doing us a charitable favour by dispensing

If you are against abortion you then approve forced pregnancy. Yoir morals are fucked up if you think refusing to dispense a drug gets you morally, religiously and spiritually off the hook.

They dispensed a drug they didn't make someone take it.

It's pure misogyny. Men trying to tell women what to do with their bodies. It waa men who came up with religion. And this man refused to dispense a legal drug.

Choosing to end a possibly non existent pregnancy cannot be considered worse than an abuse victim or a woman who is medically not safe to be pregnant being forced into a surgical procedure.

Morally superior my arse. It doesn't make you highly principled it just makes you a dick.

If your moral compass tells you it's wrong to end a pregnancy then it doesn't matter where that pregnancy is taking place - to facilitate the ending of it is the problem. They don't want it on their conscience that they did it.

That's fine. And you should choose to be an accountant. Or an estate agent. Or a TV cameraman. Where your job will never require you to come into contact with the ending of a pregnancy.

If your job is to despense drugs to the public then then surely know that you are expected to serve and treat everyone from rapists and paedophiles to paramedics and police officers. Everyone. You arent paid to judge you are paid to be professional and treat everyone. The fact you dispense drugs used to sedate and rape a woman but not to prevent pregnancy for the victim is messed up.

You would seriously treat a paedophile who's drug you approve if over an abuse victim? Really?

Though if course the victim is a woman so you feel ok to judge and refuse them

They are part of the NHS in that NHS money funds all their dispensing activities - they are not doing us a charitable favour by dispensing

Most of the businesses have a contract with the NHS to provide NHS services but that doesn't make them part of the NHS. They are private businesses and what they do and don't do for the NHS will depend on the terms of the contract with the NHS. The NHS doesn't pay them up front. The business provides a service and then effectively bills the NHS for it. They don't have to do anything for the NHS and the pharmacists who work for them are not employees of the NHS.

If I really want to take my own life, the pharmacist will not let me buy 10 boxes of paracetamol. They know I will probably go to every chemist and supermarket in the area until I have the required amount but they don't want to facilitate it personally. They don't want to be part of the process of ending my life. Are they forcing me to remain alive in a tortured mental state?

Are they judging my choice? Yes.

That's the law everywhere though. Limited purchases of certain drugs.

This is someone wanting to legally buy a drug they have every right to, objecting because of personal.opinion.

Abortion is not legally considered murder or manslaughter and the pharmacist in question is not concerned for the health if the patient. The patient is the person infromt of them not baby that they have no idea if they exist

I know many of you will reject that analogy because you believe life begins at birth and that an adult can do as they please with their own body.

But if you believe life begins at conception, and you value all human life at whatever stage of growth, you can see how someone would struggle with facilitating this.

I don't think to cry misogyny just because it affects women.

Does anyone know how many pharmacists actually take this stance? I would imagine it's a vanishingly small number.

Personal opinion has no place in medicine. It's a legal drug a woman has every legal right to take.

Your morals and opinions get to decide for yourself what to do. They don't get to decide for others.

And if you value human life you wouldn't fuck up humans life by denying access to birth control

And of course it's mysogyny.

No pharmacist had any idea what happens witg the drugs they dispense. Whether they are taken correctly or used to drug girls to rape or sold on the streets or used to give to animals or stored for a layer suicide attempt.

They could be ground up and snorted or mixed up and imjected. Anything.

So why object and refuse 1 drug. For women for something they have no idea even exists.

Are they judging my choice? Yes.

They are not "judging" your choice because they are just following the rules. Not judgement is required.

I wasn't sure about the nhs connection so that why there was ? On my comment on this.

YES it absolutely is misogyny PRECISELY because it only affects women.

I feel safe in saying I bet this pharmacist would have NO problem dispensing similar to a man, no problem dispensing eg viagra, sti meds, condoms to men. Yet chances are that the very religion "preventing" him from dispensing map ALSO says contraception and extra marital sex are forbidden.

Whilst I agree that pharmacists who refuse to dispense the MAP are in the wrong job, I don't agree that it is misogyny even if it does only affect women (even that is debatable considering men will also be affected if the woman becomes pregnant). It's also not the case that only men refuse to dispense or that this issue is restricted to muslims.

Men escape far easier though don't they. It appears to be pretty easy for even husbands bugger off claim they are jobless and pay nothing.

In the case of one night stands and date rapes they will probably never even know so how are they affected?

And the women following the same stance do so alot of the time as that's because what the man of the houses brought them up as and insist makes a good wife.

I can't tell you how many men I've served who go to church then soend the rest of the Sunday in the pub or bookies hiding from their "good Catholic/muslim/Christian etc wife" and multiple children.

They certainly don't care what their religion says then. Wives are always under far stricter "rules" so yes it is misogyny

They certainly don't care what their religion says then. Wives are always under far stricter "rules" so yes it is misogyny

I'm not stating that no men are misogynists but I think it is a leap to state that pharmacists who don't dispense the MAP are doing so because they are misogynists.... Many of those that refuse are women following their religion..

And religion was invented purely to control people. By men and mainly to control their women. When you compare how religion negatively affects men compared to how it negatively affects women it's pretty clear that it's mysoginistic in its very roots and the consequences for women going against what they have been brought up to believe are horrific. Honour killings anyone?

So no women are not likely to act against religion even if they wanted to.

I think a great many posters don't know the difference between misogyny and sexual discrimination.

Well surely you'd have to really hate women to throw them our the house to live in a shed when they menstruate.

You'd also have to hate and distrust them immensely to slice off to let them.die rather than have am abortion..

Slice off their genitals that should say