To be completely confused about gender and trans

[sirlee66]

I just don't understand!! It feel like this year, the gender debate has just sky rocketed and I've realised that I don't actually understand what it's all about!!!!

I was wondering if someone could please explain to me?

I understand that when sex cells form, the pairs of sex chromosomes (XX and XY) are separated. Females carry XX, males XY. So, all normal egg cells produced by a human ovary have an X chromosome and half of the sperm carry an X chromosome, and half a Y

So a human baby’s gender is determined by the sperm that fertilises the egg cell. The baby will be a girl if it carries an X chromosome. It will be a boy if the fertilising sperm carries a Y chromosome.

So to me, you are either a boy or a girl because you're either made up of XX or XY..

I understand that someone who is a girl can feel more like a boy and therefore want to look like a boy/get a sex change. But, technically, you'll never actually be a boy because your chromosomes will always be XX and can't be changed..?

Am I being.. I don't know what the word is.. genderist?

I just don't understand it!! We didn't learn anything about it in school and because this issue has never effected me, I've never had a reason to research into it.

Until now... It seems like transgender is constantly in the media these days and I don't know what to think about it because I just don't know enough.

Can anybody enlighten me?

I think even if you don’t understand it, people should be respectful.

Something that is NOT the consensus on MN i have noticed. So many people calling Caitlin Jenner or India Willoughby “he”.

It’s ignorant.

Is it disrespectful, duck? Or is it a deeper rooted concern for what is happening to women and women's rights as a consequence of loud lobbying and sometimes bullying from trans activists?

So what if we, as a society, scrapped "Gender"?

I think this would split trans people into 4 groups:

1. people with gender dysphoria who would still be compelled to change themselves;
2. cross-dressers who would dress up in what would now be an old fashioned version of what women used to look like;
3. people who would find transgender no longer appealing and would latch onto something else; and
4. people who would detransition.

I get really pissed off with the argument that “you can’t be a woman if you can’t carry a child” as well. There’s more than enough biological females that are incapable of becoming mothers that way and we wouldn’t dare allow them to be called “less of/than a woman”.

I also see that most of the trans issues are about MTF transitions rather than FTM transitions.

Won't they always be male?

Correct. They will always be biologically male.

A lot of women object to the phrase 'transwomen are women'. There are several reasons: the word woman is equated with female - it has the same meaning which is the biological sex of someone; it implies that transwomen are a subsection of women - whereas they are not - they are a subsection of men; saying they are women somehow implies the term transwomen denotes some sort of second class status whereas I don't think any decent person would think that - transwomen are transwomen and that is nothing to be ashamed of; finally there is the wider issue of changing what the word 'woman' actually means - if we use it to encompass biological males, then the rights of biological females becomes eroded- you ask for a woman to counsel you at the rape crisis centre and as the term 'woman' can includes males you could get a six ft bloke in a frock which could be hugely detrimental for your MH.

Loud lobbying and bullying from some feminist activists can be harmful to women too. But they’re a minority.
The majority of transgender people just want to be able to live their lives as their true selves without being persecuted or disrespected. They want to be called he/she based on who they are rather than what their genitals are.

No one says “you can’t be a woman if you can’t carry a child”. Women who are infertile or had a hysterectomy don't magically turn into men.

Actually cousin I'm not sure that's true. It's the presence or absence of the Y chromosome which determines your biological sex, not whether you have an extra X or Y. So everyone can be classified as either male or female that way.

There are a few people for whom despite their chromosomes do not respond to androgens, so their external appearance is at odds with their chromosomes.

But none of that is relevant to the trans/gender identity debate.

I'm not being unkind or nasty.
I honestly have spent many years giving no thought to someones biology or their naming choices.

I'm asking because I'm not understanding the details.
I will call anyone the name they choose but as a survivor of sexual assault I would like the option of choosing mixed sex or single.

I don't want to be on a hospital ward with males or whatever they would like to be called so I'd like to be able to articulate that without inadvertently being a prick.

I get really pissed off with the argument that “you can’t be a woman if you can’t carry a child” as well.

Eh? No one has argued that!

@Pengggwn Thank you! That's cleared a lot up for me!

So a human baby’s gender is determined by the sperm that fertilises the egg cell. - I shamelessly copied and pasted that from the most credible source I could find (BBC Bitesize ) So Perhaps Thats part of mine and maybe others misunderstanding. The actual difference between sex and gender?

@MmmmmmBop – Thank you for explaining!

@FooFighter99: So what if we, as a society, scrapped "Gender"? Would nobody then need to have hormone treatment or surgery because everyone could be whatever they damn well wanted to be?
Really good point! Something I'd definitely like to have a good debate about!

To go a little off topic here... I'd describe my Dad as sexist. He used to make me stay in to iron and wash dishes etc when my brother did not have to. But actually.. that's genderist? He's saying because my sex is female, I have to adhere to a stereotypical gendered role? Have I got that right?

Duck I've never in my life heard someone say that only women who can carry babies are women . That's ridiculous.

Most of the focus in debating this issues is on males who identify as female for two reasons: 1. women are the smaller and more vulnerable between the sexes, so the redefinition of the words "women" and "men" has implications for us that it does not have for men (for example in sport where a female calling herself male is never going to win a race against actual men, or in terms of safe spaces where a woman calling herself male is very unlikely to be perceived as a physical threat in a men's changing room or shelter), and 2. There is a large cohort of aggressive, misogynistic, abusive men who call themselves female, actively engaged in threatening and intimidating women in order to silence them on this issue. There is not the same kind of [very, very male] entitlement and aggression coming from women who call themselves male. Funny, that.

Peng is a trans woman someone without a (working) penis?

Again no issue.
Working penises would bother me.

Two sexes - male and female. Two genders - male and female. Always has been always will be. The rest are prentending.

@Pengggwn Ahhh – Gotcha! Thank you. I feel like I should be paying you some sort of fee for this free tuition!

@sirlee66 I'm up for that debate/discussion whenever you are

I may have a rather simplistic way of looking at things, but I do wish we would stop telling our children that "pink is for girls and blue is for boys, and boys must play with cars and never play with dolls..." because it's bullshit. If DD wants to dress as the Hulk for world book day then I'll be off out to stock up on green face paint!

I can change a car tyre but that doesn't make me a man!

My brother is a dab hand at doing the dishes but that doesn't make him a woman!

I'm all for tolerating people's way of life as long as they're not hurting anyone (including themselves).

But, to be honest, the trans/gender/sex issue is so multifaceted that we could talk about it all day every day for a year and never reach a conclusion. There are just too many variables

It's an interesting question whether there are far more MTF than FTM people or whether the MTF contingent is just a lot louder about it (male privilege anyone?!).

Stats in some articles I've seen suggest it's not so far off 50/50 in terms of actual numbers - but online you'd think it was about 95/5 MTF/FTM!

Another distinction there that Pengggwn just reminded me of.

Trans ideology says there is such thing as "living as a woman."

Feminism says each woman can live however the hell she wants.

And AGP?
I'd never heard of it until I saw it on mnet.
Is that a thing or just an insult?