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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that males shouldn't be working in a women's domestic abuse refuge?

32 replies

mumnotmam · 04/02/2018 11:56

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/womens-refuges-may-get-transgender-staff-3txhcr8mb

Current situation

Women's Aid allow trans-identified males who have a gender recognition certificate to work in their refuges. (This means that these individuals have been diagnosed by a doctor as having gender dysphoria and are legally classed as women - although they don't need to have had or intend to have any hormone treatment or surgery and indeed the majority chose to keep their penis).

Proposals

Women's Aid is now considering expanding this to allow men who 'self declare' as women to work in their refuges ie males who do not have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and are legally still men.

AIBU to think this is bonkers and that it is wrong for a women's charity to prioritise the validation of biological males over the safety and well-being of vulnerable, abused women?

OP posts:
mumnotmam · 04/02/2018 11:58

Rape and abuse victims in women-only refuges face being looked after by biological men after England’s biggest group of women’s shelters decided to review its ban on transgender staff.

The move, which could overturn almost half a century of refuges being run by women for women, was described by some feminists last night as the most significant erosion of female spaces yet.

It comes after the government promised to consult on letting people change sex on demand. Activists insist that “self-declared” transgender women — most of whom retain male organs — should be allowed to enter and work in woman-only spaces.

Justine Greening, the former equalities minister who drove the sex-change reforms, admitted for the first time last night that the concerns of women’s groups must be taken more into account.

She told The Sunday Times she still supported change, but stressed that the government should be “absolutely listening to the voices of women’s groups in all this and their concerns”.

The review of women’s refuges, which is not dependent on any government reform, was agreed last week by the board of the charity Women’s Aid, a federation that oversees more than 300 shelters.

Mary Mason, the board’s interim co-chairwoman, said: “We have agreed to start a review of our whole transgender policy, including the possibility of employment for self-declared transgender women without a gender recognition certificate.”

Describing it as “an extraordinarily difficult discussion,” Mason said the review, by Women’s Aid’s director of services, Nicki Norman, would take three to four months. Another board member, Sarah Forster, confirmed the move.

Prominent feminists expressed concern at the development. “Recent victims of male violence need women-only spaces where they can feel safe from men,” said Stephanie Davies-Arai, of the campaign group Transgender Trend. “This risks retraumatising vulnerable and victimised women for the sake of ideology.”

Karen Ingala Smith, head of the women’s sexual and domestic violence charity NIA, said she was concerned.

“I hope refuge providers protect the ‘for women by women’ vision of the feminist survivors and activists who built the refuge movement.

“A women-only space is one of the ways we can create a sanctuary for women to begin their recovery from men’s violence. Women and children escaping violent men should at the very least be able to expect this of a refuge,” Smith added.

A rape victim who stayed in a Women’s Aid centre said: “I am terrified for other women if this happens. I went through a patch where I feared and could not bear the sight of any man. The wonderful support I got just could not have been provided by staff who, to all intents and purposes, are men.”

Women’s Aid stressed that local refuges would be fully consulted in the review and would still have a say over who they employed.

Refuges already allow trans women as clients, though they are permitted to exclude them on a case-by-case basis. Women’s Aid’s quality standards say its services must be “accessible to transgender women”.

Currently, staff who are on the premises all the time with access to all areas are not employed in refuges without a female birth certificate. All refuge job ads on the Women’s Aid website say the applicant must be a woman.

Only people born female — or who have gone through the Gender Recognition Act process to change sex — can get a woman’s birth certificate. The government promised to consult on making the process easier, but has delayed the consultation amid growing controversy over the issue.

Equalities legislation allows providers of single-sex services to discriminate where this is “a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”.

Women’s groups also fear predatory men could use any change to access shelters. Such cases are rare but in Canada, a sex offender, Christopher Hambrook, posed as trans to obtain entry to shelters and commit attacks. This view was attacked by trans campaigner Sarah Brown, who said it “punishes vulnerable trans women for hypothetical acts of infiltration by men claiming to be trans women”.

OP posts:
Karmin · 04/02/2018 12:10

Interesting one, I have been to refuge. There was a male member of staff.

He was my keyworker, he was the nicest one of the staff there, he was so careful never to breach my personal space.

Just because he is make doesn't mean he would hurt me

Karmin · 04/02/2018 12:11

Male*

MissionItsPossible · 04/02/2018 12:15

I self identify as royalty. I'm expecting my invite to the Spencer/Markle wedding as we speak. It doesn't matter if only 1% of people in the world are royalty albecause it's how I feel and how I identify and so things must change.

I don't know about women's refuges to know if they have male staff that work there but if it's a rule that they don't allow which is now being compromised due to self identification then that is a whole load of wrong and more people need to speak out against this before it's implemented.

Boulshired · 04/02/2018 12:20

The problem I can foresee is that at least if a premises has male staff then a person can ask for a female. Once a trans woman is employed there is no way of requesting a woman. I am concerned for those women who are religious as they are unlikely to use the service will now be even more unlikely to.

Mammysin · 04/02/2018 12:22

I left refuge work recently because a (male) worker was incredibly abusive to me. I have notified a board manager and some of my ex colleagues know. I have mh issues (prior to this) and feel unutterably shit at what vulnerable women and children are being exposed to . Sorry needed to vent x

SchrodingersFrilledLizard · 04/02/2018 12:23

YANBU.

Bluebooby · 04/02/2018 12:35

Just because he is make doesn't mean he would hurt me

Of course it doesn't mean he would hurt you but many women in refuges may have a (justified) fear of men. Refuges are places where they should feel safe. There is also the issue of predators taking advantage of the change to gain access to vulnerable women.

Namechangerefuge · 04/02/2018 12:38

I posted this on another thread running about this issue but will post again.

Men are already allowed to work in refuges, I know of one where there was a male worker.

He sexually, emotionally and physically abused the women. He also got arrested for two counts of rape.

He manipulated the other female members of staff and they had no clue what was going on behind closed doors. He manipulated the abused women to the point of despite living under the same roof 24/7 they were all afraid to speak to each other. The children of the women were deeply affected due to the horrific situation they were forced to live in.

Only women should be allowed to work in women’s refuges, period.

Never allow a man into a controlled environment that consists of women unable to speak up for themselves.

mumnotmam · 04/02/2018 12:42

Karmin Was that a domestic abuse refuge? Which charity was that through as I thought most of domestic abuse/rape crisis charities did use their exemptions under the Equality Act which allow them to employ only women (although some don't then use the additional exemption which allows them to also exclude trans-identified males who are legally classed as women). Were you allowed to request a female keyworker if you preferred?

Just because he is male doesn't mean he would hurt me

It isn't just - or even mainly - about whether he would attack you - It is about vulnerable women who have been raped or physically assaulted by men feeling safe and comfortable at probably the most vulnerable time in their life.

OP posts:
demirose87 · 04/02/2018 12:47

If they have male anatomy then no they absolutely should not be able to work in these places. Most men are not a danger to women, but it is meant to be a safe place, exclusively for females, most of whom will have escaped an abusive male partner, so to allow men to work in these places goes against the whole idea of it. Many women will fear males regardless of whether they are a danger or not. And the way I see it, if a trans person identifies as a woman but does not do anything about changing their sex, then they are still male.

Coulddowithanap · 04/02/2018 13:02

Many women will fear males regardless of whether they are a danger or not.

I don't think that's true. I was in an abusive relationship but only ever feared my partner.

ElBandito · 04/02/2018 13:10

Coulddowithanap so if it isn’t true for you it isn’t true at all? Or would it be ok to say some rather than many?

SomeOldFogey · 04/02/2018 13:26

I would not trust any male who is so desperate to push into women's spaces that they would work in a women's refuge. Simple as.

Karmin · 04/02/2018 13:39

When I escaped, I was so relieved that although I was wary I just knew I was safe. It was with a church housing association that a police officer put me in touch with, tbh I didn't realise there were different types of refuge. I do get that anyone can seek a job like this to abuse their power, I suppose I was lucky

charlestonchaplin · 04/02/2018 13:47

Coulddowithanap
Do you understand the meaning of the word 'many'? It doesn't mean 'all'. And can you, and other people like you, think about other people from time to time? This idea that if it's fine with you, it should be fine with everyone else just reeks of arrogance and self-centredness. It's not a good look.

Lovesagin · 04/02/2018 13:56

Yanbu at all. I would question why a TIM would deliberately parachute himself into a space where he knows the majority of the women there will feel uncomfortable, scared, threatened.

So now even the safest space of all won't be safe.

Pinky333777 · 04/02/2018 14:09

But some of those women will have been abused by predatory partners of the same sex, not necessarily men.
They should have peace of mind instilled that EVERYONE who works there have been vetted and are SAFE. Gender shouldn't really come into it x

nothingcomestonothing · 04/02/2018 14:27

Blimey, we really have gone through the looking glass at this point. Many years ago I worked in a refuge - some perpetrators would try sending their mums or sisters in claiming to be fleeing DV, in order to pressure their victims or get access to the children to apply pressure via them. Presumably if all a bio male has to do is declare they are female in order to get a job in a refuge, the same rule will apply to service users? Doesn't make much sense if it's one rule for staff and one for service users. So in order to access their partner or kids all a perpetrator would have to do would be to declare they are female, and they'd get let in? What a time to be alive Sad

demirose87 · 04/02/2018 14:33

I meant women in refuges, sorry, not women in general that will fear males.

athingthateveryoneneeds · 04/02/2018 14:37

That's quite a distressing thought, nothing.

Trailedanderror · 04/02/2018 14:41

@Namechangerefuge
That's appalling. Was a women's Aid refuge? Do you mind pming me some details? Initials and location or something that would let me google, I've already written them an incredibly reasonable letter.

HairyBallTheorem · 04/02/2018 14:58

I remember Jess Philips being interviewed about her work in DV refuges and saying one of the things they quite often came up against was men's rights activists applying for jobs and demanding to be interviewed "because equality", when it was quite clear that what they actually wanted was (a) to cause trouble for an all-women's organisation just because they hated women and (b) they were exactly the last type of man you'd want working in such an organisation.

It used to be the case (this is me now, not Jess's interview) that you could knock them back by citing the carefully framed exemptions under equalities legislation. Now any man who fancies harrassing women for sport just has to self identify as gender fluid and say he feels like a woman on Mondays and Thursdays (conveniently, the days he'd be working in a part-time position) and there you go, instant access to vulnerable women to harrass.

SimonBridges · 04/02/2018 15:05

The problem I can foresee is that at least if a premises has male staff then a person can ask for a female. Once a trans woman is employed there is no way of requesting a woman. I am concerned for those women who are religious as they are unlikely to use the service will now be even more unlikely to.

This has happened with a woman requesting a woman to perform her smear test. The nurse that came was a trans woman. The patient said that she wanted a woman and was told ‘this is a woman, what is your problem!’

kubex · 04/02/2018 15:16

I would not trust any male who is so desperate to push into women's spaces that they would work in a women's refuge. Simple as.

What an absolutely ridiculous thing to say!