To think mysogeny should not be made a hate crime?

[Olympiathequeen]

Of course mysogeny is rife (sadly), but women make up 50% of the population so we are hardly a minority, like disabled, BME or religious minorities.

There are plenty of laws to protect women against men’s aggression and plenty of laws to protect both sexes against discrimination.

I can’t even see what practical application this has and would tie up valuable police time.

And how can we have equality if 50% of the population are pitted against the other 50%? Surely we can’t have a situation where a man is charged with mysogeny for putting vile stuff on the internet, yet a woman could say the same about him and not be prosecuted?

We’re in danger of alienating reasonable, decent men by having a law which would cast them as the villeins and of giving entitled men more reasons to abuse women.

On the other hand I think there should be something to prevent the type of abuse Diane Abbott and other female politicians suffered but this doesn’t need to be female centred but applicable to men and women.

I’m happy to be convinced otherwise if the arguments are good.

I hate misogyny as much as anyone. I hate racists and religious intolerance. I hate violence of any kind. I was married to a misogynistic, violent man but I have sons who are not like their father. I think the proposed legislation is a hammer to crack a nut, and far more important is to change society.

It just feels like the thought police are coming.

A woman may be sexually assaulted because the man wants to dominate someone smaller and weaker than himself

So why not rape a man who is smaller and weaker than himself?

You wouldn't need to prove an additional "thought" crime. Any evidence of misogyny would be an aggravating factor of the crime committed, and taken into account when sentencing.

I’m in the minority, but I kind of agree in so far as I do not think any hate crimes should be punished more severely.
I think you should be punished for the action, not the intent.
It’s a bit ‘thought crime’-ey to me, it shouldn’t matter if you punch someone in the face because of their race, or because you generally don’t like the look of them, or because you’re just a dickhead who fancied punching them in the face, the punishment should be due to the action, not the reason behind the action. Like I said, I think I’m pretty alone on this though.

DN. please don’t attribute words to me I didn’t say. Women are worth far more that society currently allocates to them. I said the money wasted on trying to add legislation where it already exists would be better spent on education, women’s refuges etc.

If the date is being used to affect sentencing then surely that is what it should be doing without needing confusing legislation?

The psychologist Tanya Byron has reported on a government study on internet safety (where imo vile abuse of women and young people is perpetrated) and 10 years ago made recommendations for a voluntary code. So far nothing. I would campaign for legislation there as it is a clear case of provable hate crime, not to mention child entrapment, racism and terrorism.

You can teach children to respect others but you can never enforce what goes on inside someone’s head, and often what comes out of their mouth in an almost unconscious misogyny.

With respect your hate crime is more based on you being part of a tiny minority of trans gendered people, and I believe trans gendered people are viewed by some men with fear because deep down they all have a feminine side they are suppressing because a misogynistic parent instilled this in them. I have a friend who is transitioning male to female and I fear for her safety. Not because she is a woman but she is clearly still a man dressing as a woman. She is far more at risk than a woman walking down the same street and far more likely to be feared and hated and attacked.

rita. Do you think young men aren’t raped by stronger older men? Particularly young male sex workers? Or can’t a sex worker be raped?

Where do you get evidence of the hate aspect of a crime? You can’t read someone’s mind. If someone beats up a woman they clearly hate her at that moment in time, but then so do men who are fighting other men.

50% of female murder victims are killed by intimate partners or family, overwhelming male.
6% of male murder victims are killed by intimate partners or family, most of them male.
71% of trafficking victims are female. Girls being 3 out of 4 child victims.
Of 1000 violent assaults 33 offenders will go to jail. Of 1000 violent sexual offenders 6 offenders will go to jail.
80% of sexual assaults are not reported.
Misogyny is a precursor to Domestic Abuse and Violence. There is a tsunami of violence against women and girls and enough is enough. If we don't catch perpetrators at the misogyny level then they will go on to abuse and violence later.
I can give you my sources for all these facts. I am at Uni and recently made a study of violence against women and girls. Yes, men experience violence but the perpetrators are STILL overwhelmingly male. This is a male issue.

Olympia so it’s specifically male violence you want to target instead of misogyny?

Or can’t a sex worker be raped?

Also, this is an unfair reach to Rita’s point. You are the one arguing that men raping women isn’t motivated by misogyny.

More violent crime is perpetrated by men on men. That is also a statistical fact.

I am not disputing violence against women is appalling and unacceptable and must be stopped. A law to prevent anyone hating a woman isn’t going to solve any problems. I think it would make a misogynistic minority even more aggrieved against women and fuel their belief system.

The crimes you cite need stronger legislation and better enforcement and a total change in societal attitudes to women.

Op you do realise that

1. BAME are far far more closely represented in parliament per population percentages than women are?
2. BAME men were given the vote, could get a university education & keep what they earned decades before any woman was. So why do you think BAME men deserve more protection than women? You almost say that making mysoginy a crime is divisive, yet you’re doing just that by attempting to measure ‘victimness’

Pumper. Do not twist what I’ve said or rewrite my views. I had a husband who loved to do it and I can spot it a mile off now.

Changing laws is a very important part of how we change society. Changing laws does more to change society than adjusting a curriculum that most schools aren't required to follow anyways. You say yourself that voluntary codes do nothing, voluntary codes to gather evidence of crimes against women does nothing.

Hate crimes are about evidence of hateful actions. Personally, I don't care who hates me, I've had people tell me as long as I can remember and that is their problem. It's the power and social backing to act out their hate that makes it my problem. Having this legislation and getting this information is part of taking away that power and social backing. It's worked for so many others, why not women? Why do we think prosecutors and judges are going to suddenly be so confused with misogyny compared to other hate crimes? People have explained the evidence used in other hate crimes over and over, it isn't suddenly different to misogyny.

Women are just as worth having that legally enshrined as anyone else. I do not understand the idea that it being hard or not black and white to do means we shouldn't or that this is one addition to hate crime legislation that's too much. Women are worth the time, the money, and all the hammers. We can have the legislation on hate crimes, fight for funding for refuges and women's centres, push internet sites for better protections, there is room for all of that.

In attacks I've dealt with, I was attacked for being a female who did not comply to what those people thought a female person should be. What the people involved each time was very clear evidence of that. I've been beaten and raped and told over and over about it. No man is afraid of me, men are not scared of trans men, they do it because they know the power in using our bodies against us. Seriously, the whole idea of that they're scared is based on the bullshit trans panic idea that been disproven many times. Male violence is about power, not fear.

I wonder how we could get a total change to societal attitudes to women. Could one of the strands of this change be misogyny being classed as a hate crime.

We did not avoid introducing race hate crime in case it made a racist minority feel even more aggrieved.

I think it would make a misogynistic minority even more aggrieved against women and fuel their belief system.

But if that was true then they’d be punished by law, unless you think that punishment isn’t a deterrent? And they’d still be wrong. It seems strange that you’d want to block a law because it might upset the people most likely to break it.

YABU. The Fawcett Society has some good stuff on this: www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/blog/start-calling-out-misogyny-hate-crime

Ditto forkhandles.
I never said any of those things apart from it would be divisive and create resentment, thereby fuelling misogyny. Do you disagree 50% of the population might resent being lumped in with violent and abusive men, purely because of their gender? You may say a normal man has nothing to fear but you don’t know that. Many normal men are afraid to bathe with their baby daughters because they fear being labelled paedophiles.

@Olympiathequeen I have you examples of the evidence that might be used as evidence of hate as an aggravating factor. So evidence of racist/homophobic/sexist language being used during the attack, evidence that victims were targeted specifically because of their protected characteristic (maybe in the form of text messages, emails, letters, witness testimony), evidence of racist/homophobic/sexist graffiti/symbols done by the perpetrator at the scene of the crime, and so on.

Pumper. Do not twist what I’ve said or rewrite my views. I had a husband who loved to do it and I can spot it a mile off now.

I cross posted with this. I stand by my comment, and that yours to Rita was unfair.

And I asked you already why ordinary, good men would find themselves lumped in with misogynists. They wouldn’t, unless they chose to be.

I'm pretty sure decent good men wouldn't have reason to worry.

Also, the problem is not of minorities, but power. As in the white minority in South Africa during Apartheid vs the black majority.
Women may be 50% of the population but are more vulnerable and (overall) have much less power, in spite of the Queen and PM.

rita. Do you think young men aren’t raped by stronger older men?

Yes, but not at the same rate.

Male-perpetuated violence is of course the key problem but there's a huge correlation between male violence and misogyny. The belief in power over others, that weakness is to be despised and dominated.

For me, seeing misogyny as a hate crime is about consciousness-raising. Some people think it's ok to say absolutely hideous things about women. Insults calling women vindictive, gold-diggers, whores, attention seekers litter the internet.

I've seen comments under the (many) Larry Nassar victim impact statement videos accusing women of being attention-seeking whores. Why is it ok to say this? This kind of hatred should be ridiculed and despised and yet it just goes on, unchallenged.

I mean...

Would all men be resentful? Are all straight people resentful that sexual orientation is covered in hate crime legislation? Are well over 95-98% of the population who have never been dysphoric upset that gender identity is included? Are all people born British citizens upset that nationality is there? I think you're just trying to create barriers that aren't there.

Most men I've talked about this are mostly just surprised that it is isn't there already. Most thought it was already the law. A lot of people think gender identity already covers sex-based hate crimes when it doesn't. Really, it wouldn't change the law other than adding another class category to the process that happens when a crime occurs to investigate for hate crimes. The processes are already there, we just want women to be given that.

Assassin. But aren’t they just evidence of stalking type behaviour of one person on another person. My husband hates me and stalked me because I stood up to him, not primarily because I was a woman. If I had accepted his superiority he would probably though I was an excellent woman!

Emails, texts are specific person based communications from a perpetrator to a victim and they are already used as evidence in crimes.

Stranger on woman (politician for example) is already classed as harrassment and a criminal act. Of course he will use woman specific abuse along with racist abuse and it’s all vile.