Does labeling of Vegetarian/Vegan/Pescatarian put us all off eating less meat?

[speakout]

Do we really need these labels? I am an omnivore. I eat very little meat or dairy.
I understand there are many reasons for avoiding animal products in our diet, health and cost are some, but I wonder if by applying such strict definitions of ourselves it is actually counter productive.
I have seen vegans slated because they have polished off a bowl of ice cream, vegetarians who have fallen off the wagon and eaten a kebab, does all that really matter?

I know for some there is a moral issue- which is open for debate, but possibly a huge number like me prefer to eat mostly a plant based diet, but if I find a bit of lamb in my cassoulet or my corn on the con has been cooked on the same bit of BBQ as a steak it;s no big deal.
I guess I am questioning the whole religious zeal of vegetarianism, and also how many vegetarians choose their diet based on "moral" grounds.

It’s for each individual to define their own identity and the drivers behind that - moral, health, economic. I can understand why a vegan would be berated for eating ice cream if they were vocal in their objection to meat eaters - people will always call out hypocrisy. And labels in the physical sense are needed to help people avoid foods they choose not to eat.

It doesn’t put me off, I don’t mind if someone is vegan 99% of the time but has a bowl of ice cream or whatever. Vegans particularly seems to bring out a kind of fury in a lot of people, like they’re waiting for a vegan to slip up so they can cry hypocrite.

There’s few things more annoying than people being hyper-critical about what you’re eating, which goes both ways - either someone constantly commenting on what you’re eating or telling you off for eating something they wouldn’t. But I don’t think that’s a trait only vegetarians or vegans have.

For me i think it depends how it is presented. I have had a couple of friends turn vegan or vegetarian who then became super preachy. Think 'i cant believe you would eat rotting carcasses' etc. Another, a pescatarian, will often say 'i dont eat flesh, urgh', whilst happily eating fish. I just find it really annoying. I'm not sure what to call myself. A meat avoider maybe?? I hardly ever touch it anx try not to, but i do sometimes. I'm doing my best but i wont berate other people for making their own choices.

So yeah. I think the label doesnt help and the people who preach about it make it worse for those of us who are quietly trying to do our bit as people are always waiting to jump all over you if you fall off the wagon.

pumper- but that's the point- why say you are a vegan if you sometimes eat ice cream?

I am questioning whether labels are actually helpful.

I agree that if you are very vocal about being a vegan for moral reasons then not a surprise if you are berated for eating dairy ice cream - though plenty of tasty soya ice creams! I did Veganuary. And will carry on ish , so plan to eat mainly a plant based diet, but I’m not going to be super strict and - like you OP - will probably sometimes eat fish, eggs, maybe meat. So I would never try and describe myself as a vegan but will follow a vegan diet for 90% of the time. I also don’t plan to ever tell anyone anyway, just quietly eat what I want. Each to their own.

Hmmm, just on your labelling point, DD is vegan and trawling through ingredients' lists is a PITA. Where food is well labelled DD will feel content and I'll spend more. So labelling is really important.
The rest of us are pescatarian which is obviously easier to track down. I wouldn't be at all happy to come across other meat in my food, I would spit it out.
Human beings aren't particularly logical when it comes to their belief systems. They need decent labelling so they can easily follow whatever rules they've chosen and other people should probably keep their opinions about it to themselves.

GaraMedouar exactly. I don't even discuss with my OH. He will notice that I may have a stuffed mushroom instead of a steak, or tofu in a stir fry, but I would not call myself a vegetarian.

Well, for lots of reasons - you’ve been offered it and it would be rude to refuse, or you thought it was dairy free and it wasn’t, or you just fancy it having not touched it for five years. Saying ‘no thanks, I’m vegan’ is easier than saying ‘no thanks, I’m vegan but two weeks ago I met my boyfriends family for the first time and his gran had made ice cream and offered me it and I thought it would be rude to refuse so I tried some’.

Ah, half awake I misunderstood. Ignore me.

If I had a pound every time someone said “so you’re vegetarian” when I tell them I only eat white meat and fish!

I’ve not eaten red meat for over 30 years, I get labelled by others.

I suppose the labels are there if you want to use them. I've cut down to fish atm but I'll not be going around telling everyone I'm a Pescatarian.
I'm going to try and avoid things made from leather but I'd not be bothered by eating a corn on the cob from a BBQ where steak has been cooked.
I think in general though if someones made a big deal out of making these changes in their life, a slip up with a so called prohibited item, then I suppose others are more likely to jump on them about it. Doesn't make it right though. They should mind their own beeswax.

My ds follows a plant based diet for health reasons. So he eats vegan food about 95% of the time, but if there's no vegan option he goes for the vegetarian one. However, he would always prefer thd vegan option so I do scroll through labels. It's a lot easier if food is marked "suitable for vegsns""

You don't call yourself a vegetarian because you aren't a vegetarian. Of course you don't care about the label. I would mind very much if I found some lamb in my meal.

I never "preach" about my food choices. I would rather not talk about it. I do find A LOT of people seem to think it's ok to question my choices. I am often asked to justify why I don't eat meat.

Vitalogy Yes I agree, it does bother others though, me included.
I had a relative staying with me for 6 weeks recently- from a distant country. She is " vegan". I bent over backwards to make her welcome, cooking really nice food ( a steep but enjoyable learning curve for me).
Two of my family members love eating meat, so cooking all vegan was not an option, so cooking meals was lots of pot juggling to make sure everyone was happy, no cross contamination. It was over the christmas period, so lots of festive meals, and sometimes extra friends and family too- so a lot of work.
A few days before my relative left we went out for a coffee. Vegan relative ordered herself an ice cream sundae- with full dairy ice cream and marshmallows and scoffed the lot.
I was angry. I had been jumping through hoops for 6 weeks to make sure none of her food was contaminated with the slightest trace of animal or dairy.
My relative had every right to eat an ice cream, but labelling herself as vegan did impact others.

I was a vegetarian for 20 years and it was for moral reasons. I wouldn't eat food that was cooked on the same surfaces as meat, but I was also quite happy to accommodate anyone cooking for me (I'd bring my own things and cook them myself so as not to trouble people if I was a guest in their house, etc.). Obviously, when you eat out though, you can be careful, but you don't ever really know how things are cooked, so you just have to do the best that you can. I'm not a vegetarian now, but I eat more plant based meals than not. The only reason I'm not is mainly for practical reasons. Once I had my dd to cook for (my dh and I never had any intention of raising her as a vegetarian, I want her to make that choice herself when she's older if it's right for her), it meant the two of us essentially cooking multiple meals each night. My dh was happy to eat mostly vegetarian and he would always just cook himself some meat if he wanted it, I was cooking a vegetarian meal for at least myself every night, plus something slightly modified for a baby/toddler. It meant we ended up essentially cooking 3 different meals each night. It was stressful and expensive. I decided I was much happier to eat some meat than to stress over everyone's different eating habits. We've found a happy medium that way that works for all of us.

But I think actually a lot of omnivores are put off by labels. I don't think that meals we need to get rid of the labels, but people should be more openminded about their dietary choices. I know plenty of people who claim that would never eat vegetarian or vegan food. Yet they do it all the time when they go for Indian or Thai or have a pizza, etc. I used to only cook vegetarian meals for house guests and really no one ever noticed much. For the first probably 5 years of our relationship, my dh and I only ever cooked vegetarian food if we were at my house or when we lived together. He didn't mind and it was really eye opening for him how much he didn't miss the meat. He's quite happy now to tell people that we still eat vegetarian several days a week (even though neither of us is vegetarian, and he loves meat and would otherwise probably eat it most days). Vegetarian and vegan food can be really inventive and tasty and has come a lot way since the 70s of tofu and bean sprouts.

DH and I have been eating mostly vegan since last April but we are not too strict about it and still eat fish once a week (more now I am pg). We still like meat but wanted to reduce our impact on the environment. It's a pita to explain it and I try to avoid it but if you ask for soya milk or choose a veggie option people always ask.

The way I see it is like recycling/packaging - we do our best and can be 100% at home but sometimes there isn't a recycling bin available when you're out and about, or you need to buy something in a plastic tub. No one jumps on you going "oooh can't call yourself a recycler any more can you".

I agree that the labels and culture that have grown around veganism are not necessarily helpful in engaging a wider group of people to eat veggie/vegan more often but the availability of vegan foods and products has certainly grown hugely in the last year and that is down to those who have embraced the whole lifestyle and created a demand for it, so hopefully that will continue until it becomes more normal to buy vegan regularly, whatever your overall diet.

I agree with you op. Labels are not super useful and can set you up to 'fail'. Like you, I eat very little meat and eat meat-free meals most of the time. Occasionally I want to or end up eating a piece of chicken or fish- i don't beat myself up about it because I am not a vegetarian.

That said, I think it's rude to be in someone's house, especially for an extended period of time, and expect them to bend over backwards to cater to your food preferences without making much effort yourself (like your relative, op). I have a SIL who is gluten free (doesn't eat any gluten, but cross contamination isn't a worry for her so we can at least use the same cooking surfaces). When she comes to stay with us, I may an effort to not cook meals that contain gluten, but she brings her own gluten free bread, cereals, snacks, etc. Same when I was a vegetarian. I used to come and stay with my now dh and his family (when we were dating). We'd stay with them for a week or two at a time. I'd find out what they planned to eat for dinners and then go to the shops and buy my own meat substitutes and cook them myself, so his mum didn't need to worry about making me a special meal. I'd just eat the sides she made, plus my own things.

I think if you go to someone's home you should eat whatever they serve you. In all other circumstances you can choose whatever you like. I don't think labels are necessary except on the food itself. I generally but not always choose vegetarian food. I would never expect friends or family to cook something different for me- I think that's rude.

I use the label vegetarian because I am a vegetarian. I have not eaten meat in 13 years. I don’t eat anything with animal fat either. The twice that meat has gone into my body in the last 13 years was accidental. One sausage roll that I thought was veggie and a macaroni cheese bite thing that had bacon in it as well but I didn’t realise until I took a bite. I felt horrendous both times.

I am a veggie for moral reasons but only discuss them when people specifically ask me or start judging me. I do request that my food does not touch meat, meaty cutlery not touch my food... I try never to preach though. What I don’t eat is my choice and I can’t force anyone else to change their diet. I just wish people would shut up and accept my diet choices.

Those labels are helpful if you are veggie or vegan and are eating for food to eat. Rather than looking through a whole list of ingredients, it is easier to just look for 'suitable for vegetarians' etc. There are some ingredients that are not vegetarian but are not obvious, for example certain wheys and food colourings.

I understand what you are implying about valuing efforts: if people reduce there meat/animal product consumption that is praiseworthy. Labels are up to individuals.

Can you really not understand why it’s useful for someone who is actually vegetarian or vegan to say so? I don’t mean someone like you who isn’t, but someone who genuinely is? My DH is vegetarian, he has been for his entire adult life (30 years or so). He will only eat vegetarian food. If something is cooked with animal fat or with utensils that are also used for meat, he will decline it. Because he’s vegetarian.
What is not at all helpful is people who aren’t vegetarian saying that they are ‘but they eat fish’.

The “religious zeal of vegetarianism”?? YABVU right there.

And as a veggie I have no problem with whatever anyone else wants to eat, but if the labels don’t matter then I get served fish, meat stock, or things that only have a little meat in. I will not eat it. The thought of eating a dead animal makes me feel ill. I feel bad for days after. So it matters to me. I don’t care if you don’t agree with my choice, but you don’t get to minimise it as a choice I have the freedom to make for myself.

You eat what you like, I’ll eat what I want and use the “label” as a shorthand for others to know what I am eschewing so I don’t have list it out each time.

I eat vegan meals maybe 90% of the time but I describe myself as veggie as I will eat dairy, honey and eggs. So it’s no biggie if I get served them. I certainly would be upset if I got served or ate meat cause someone thought me being veggie “didn’t really matter.”

Some people find the thought of eating another animal abhorrent. And choose not to for ethical and environmental reasons. I’m one of them. Don’t conflate my very conscious decision with your preference.

It’s also possible to get vegan ice cream by the way.

I’m not often offended, and I’ve had a lot of opinions on my choice over the last 28 years but the tone of your post has really ground my gears.

"if people reduce there [sic] meat/animal product consumption that is praiseworthy"

According to whom.

I like it when people announce or label themselves vegan (as they invariably do). I know I need an escape route from the conversation.

"I have seen vegans slated because they have polished off a bowl of ice cream, vegetarians who have fallen off the wagon and eaten a kebab, does all that really matter?"

In my experience, vegans and vegetarians are so preachy, smug and evangelical that it's just quite satisfying to see them slip up. In the same way we like to see an arrogant sportsman fall over or a homophobic religious person is having an affair.

I'm not saying that gloating at a hypocrites comeuppance is good, but it's human nature.

I suspect that these labels are more for the vegans and vegetarians than the rest of us who want to eat our meat and 3 veg in peace.

I see Vegan and Vegetarian as defined terms (defined by those Societies) rather than a label and they denote subscription to that ethos/regime. Eating food that contains no meat or animal products is not eating vegan as in a sense there’s no such thing but there is Vegan friendly food or food suitable for Vegans - being those people who avoid animal products entirely. If I have a meal that contains no animal products, I’m just eating an animal free meal, that doesn’t make me sometimes Vegan.