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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Aibu in being shocked at this school newsletter?

570 replies

whensitmyturn · 02/02/2018 17:17

Aibu in being pretty appalled at this school news letter or am i being naive?

Children attend a catholic primary school- dh is Catholic I am not. Never had an issue with the school, children are in the last couple of years there.

Had a newsletter home tonight saying that a new ‘children and social work act of 2017’ has been passed and that parents will no longer be able to remove their children for PSHE lessons but that the government are still deciding what content the lessons should have. There is a public questionnaire on gov.uk to write your ideas.

The newsletter then goes on to say that we need to ensure that things that are age suited to children get suggested and I quote ‘to avoid respect for alternative lifestyles being allowed to undermine Christian principles of marriage and family life’.

It then goes on to link ‘coalition for marriage’ for help with us filling in this questionnaire.

Coalition 4 marriage is a group that promotes a traditional family set up and states that children should be taught that ‘marriage between a man and a woman as the gold standard of adult relationships’ Also that ‘they believe there is no age-appropriate way to teach primary school children about same sex marriages or transgenderism’. In blinding hypocrisy it then goes on to say ‘we should be teaching children broad values of tolerance and respect’.

!? I thought that in this day and age in the uk even if you attend a faith school inclusivity was seen as important/ the norm.
Would you be angry at this or just see it as an unavoidable downside of attending a catholic school?

OP posts:
JassyRadlett · 05/02/2018 20:30

It is the leaders of the day, on both sides , who play on the obvious mistrust between the different religions and cultures, to feed the drive to continue fighting to gain more power, and control ( over land, oil ).

Religion has historically been a very effective way of controlling and motivating the populace.

JassyRadlett · 05/02/2018 20:31

Is it a private school? I missed that bit.

midsummabreak · 05/02/2018 20:45

Yes JassyR religion is a powerful motivator of both altruistic and oppressive behaviour. And I do believe hiding gay love & marriage from primary children hurts the gay people and is a form of oppression
But regarding 'the world's problems' being caused by religion, some leaders motivated mass killing, not in the name of religion, but State led , such as Pol Pot and Stalin

JassyRadlett · 05/02/2018 20:48

But regarding 'the world's problems' being caused by religion, some leaders motivated mass killing, not in the name of religion, but State led , such as Pol Pot and Stalin

And I wouldn’t make such a claim. Smile But there are strong arguments that some of the world’s problems have been caused by religion.

midsummabreak · 05/02/2018 20:55

NotanotherEmma maybe the Op did not expect the private religious school to deny teaching her children about love, about tolerance & respect. Perhaps she saw the school's positive features, and her husband may have discussed his positive experiences, and she did not stop to think there were some oppressive negative features

mathanxiety · 06/02/2018 02:40

It's not a private school as far as we know here.

Julie8008 · 06/02/2018 03:19

If your going to a faith school then you should have to sign the form, "I believe that my children are 10 % more intelligent than other children because I believe in a deity that killed his own son 2000 years ago, just to show us what the right thing to do is."

mathanxiety · 06/02/2018 03:31

nextDayDelivery:

The third is easily demonstrated by finding a list of the most batshit crazy christian ideas and beliefs that come straight from your bible. You know, the racist, homophobic, misogynist bits. If you worship a pathetic, nasty and vindictive god as described in the bible, the one who drowned everyone on earth save one family, the one who killed all first born sons, the one who allows pain and suffering and leukemia in children and dementia and the one who had his own son tortured and killed as an offering to himself then you need to take a long hard look in the mirror and question who you're looking up to.

Do please refer to my posts concerning sola scriptura and prima scriptura and the difference between the two:

'Prima scriptura' asserts that the word of God as found in OT and NT is part of the 'deposit of faith', the foundation of sacred Tradition of which there are other elements, with the bible the primary part but not the only one.

The bible as we know it in the RC church (it is different from the KJV) was recognised as the divine word and put together by the early church, with the Gospels and epistles added as they were written, after consideration and a process of discernment, by church leaders who claimed apostolic succession and whose claim was acknowledged and accepted by the church. These also became part of the deposit of faith.

The point where the RC church parts company with others on the topic of what to do with that deposit of faith is in its claim to continued apostolic succession and thus the right to authoritatively interpret the bible. In most post Reformation denominations, individual interpretation is urged. Individual interpretation alone informs conscience. This is the concept of 'sola scriptura' - scripture alone with no mediator.

So Catholics do not normally refer to the bible as the informer of their consciences, but to the RC catechism, which is a long distillation of scripture, sacred Tradition, theology, and philosophy, and to Papal encyclicals. (If at all).

In your focus on the bible as a stick to beat Catholics with, you are (a) barking up the wrong tree, and (b) revealing yet again your complete ignorance of Catholicism.

It's interesting that so much of the bible needs to 'age appropriate'. At what age do you swap easter eggs for crucifixion?
Easter eggs are not technically speaking anything to do with the Christian celebration of Easter at all. You could easily celebrate Easter without a single bite of chocolate. But heyho.

You seem to object to children learning about crucifixion. Why?
Do you object to children learning about wars or the Black death or infant mortality in centuries past or the Princes in the Tower or life for children in Victorian England or any kind of historical injustice as part of history?

You've let your bigotry surface with comments about needing to be of an appropriate age to teach about homosexuality proving in this case at least, religion poisons everything ie. you.
Au contraire - and you have once again revealed your ignorance here.
Children of 4, 5, 6, 7, need a lesson on homosexuality or heterosexuality or any other sexuality like fish need bicycles.
They need lessons and well designed programmes to counter bullying and the urge to bully and the dynamics of bullying. They all need to feel completely secure and valued as individuals in school. You do not need to teach young children about human sexuality in order to impart the values of tolerance and open mindedness and mutual respect.
.................

Listen carefully pigeon Math. Asking your opinion on whether homosexuality is a sin requires no information on my part to ask. I'm not sure you understand what misinformed means.
I am completely au fait with the definition of 'misinformed'.
To paraphrase another poster, you appear to be so misinformed that you are not even aware how misinformed you are.
I know 'misinformed' when I come across it.
I recognise it because I am well-informed, no thanks to experience of any RE curriculum but because of my academic background in history, and a quick compare and contrast exercise involving what I know to be fact with your rantings here tells me all I need to know.

“Such persons [i.e. gay people] must be accepted with respect and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.”
Accepted doesn't mean you don't think they're going to hell and if you do think they can get through the pearly gates then you've misread the bible. You can be a good christian or a good person, remember. The bible's clear with what it thinks about homosexuality.
You have decided not to let facts get in the way of the flow of bile.
You are entitled to your opinions of course.
You are not entitled to claim to enter into someone else's mind and condemn them for what you imagine you find there.
You are not entitled to misrepresent any organised religion to further the purpose of spewing hatred and intolerance on the internet.

I do understand why churches are ignoring those bits of the bible which are most abhorrent though
Let me again refer you to the information on sola scriptura vs. prima scriptura.

JassyRadlett · 06/02/2018 07:00

You seem to object to children learning about crucifixion. Why?

Well, I nailed one of my dolls to a home made cross when I was five. I’m not sure that I was quite equipped to deal with it at that age.

At that age, I was probably better able to deal with the idea that sometimes a man and a woman love each other and get married, and sometimes it’s two men who love each other that way, and sometimes it’s two women.

Curious the things that are and aren’t considered age-appropriate. Torture - yay! Adults loving and committing to each other - way too complex for primary school kids.

BertrandRussell · 06/02/2018 10:24

I went to a church based playgroup when dd was little. The minister came to do a Christmas talk. He had a little felt Christmas tree in front of him, and, when he was talking about the true meaning of Christmas, he lifted it up and it was like a teacosy for a wooden cross underneath. A cross, thankfully, not a crucifix but still..

Disclaimer. I am aware that this is bonkers behaviour by an obvious loon, and not at all typical of Christians. But it is an anecdote I am fond of, and more seriously, loon or not, he was the minister of a large and popular church.

nextDayDelivery · 06/02/2018 13:07

"So Catholics do not normally refer to the bible as the informer of their consciences, but to the RC catechism, which is a long distillation of scripture, sacred Tradition, theology, and philosophy, and to Papal encyclicals. (If at all)."

Yes. Verbum domini. You need to rely on Papal interpretation. Sounds even more like a patriarchial, classist construction to keep the plebs under control as you get to change what the bible means whenever you feel like it.

I'd also struggle to accept anything a pope talks about. Papal inquisitions. NAZI sympathies. Of course the latest one is a corker.

The Pope was handed an eight-page letter in 2015 that graphically detailed how a priest sexually assaulted a man and clergy ignored it. The fact that Francis received the eight-page letter, obtained by the AP, challenges his insistence that he has “zero tolerance” for sex abuse and cover-ups. It also calls into question his stated empathy with abuse survivors, compounding the most serious crisis of his five-year papacy.

If there is a god and a heaven and hell then a good few popes, 'saints' and other clergy sure as fuck deserve to burn for eternity for their crimes against individuals and humanity.

The pope is as despicable as god.

"You could easily celebrate Easter without a single bite of chocolate. But heyho."

Sounds shit. Then you only have torture and murder and 'rising from the dead'.

You speak about my entitlement completely missing the point and not simply being that I'm entitled to the things you said I'm not.

I'm perfectly entitled to my view. Religion poisons everything. You cannot be a good person and a good christian. If god does exist he's a horrible, nasty bastard.

"You are not entitled to misrepresent any organised religion to further the purpose of spewing hatred and intolerance on the internet."

The misrepresenting bit is clearly up for debate. It's good to hate and not tolerate evil.

I note that you claim I rant and spew etc. but your trite ad hominem don't strengthen your argument whatsoever.

"Let me again refer you to the information on sola scriptura vs. prima scriptura."

Yes, of course. God is good. Oh, evidence he's bad? No, that's an allegorical genocide. Lot's wife was symbolic. Offering your daughter to be raped? That's a metaphor. God telling the army to keep the virgins for themselves and killing everyone else? That definitely didn't happen. The pope said so. You can prove the creation story is false? Ah, that's just a fable yes, jesus was tortured and killed for the fable.

Your trite ad hominem attacks don't support your arguement and your complete failure to address the many posters who have asked over and over again why you think homosexual marriage and relationships are complex shows nothing but your prejudice. Not doing anything to disprove the disjoint sets of good person and religious person.

mathanxiety · 07/02/2018 03:53

nextDayDelivery

If there is a god and a heaven and hell then a good few popes, 'saints' and other clergy sure as fuck deserve to burn for eternity for their crimes against individuals and humanity.

The pope is as despicable as god.

I'm perfectly entitled to my view. Religion poisons everything. You cannot be a good person and a good christian. If god does exist he's a horrible, nasty bastard.

Crikey. It's amazing how much you have managed to get your knickers in a twist over a being and an afterlife you are convinced does not exist, and countless people who are actually dead, for thousands of years in some cases.

I realise you are an anti-theist and all, but do they give out medals for uber over-investment?

As I said several times now, you are entitled to your view. You have an inalienable right to be wrong.

You do not have the right to spew hatred on the internet or anywhere else.

your complete failure to address the many posters who have asked over and over again why you think homosexual marriage and relationships are complex shows nothing but your prejudice.

I have explained it several times. Clearly what I have said has gone completely over your head. This is because you are so completely unfamiliar with Catholicism and RC education that your points of reference are a million miles from mine.

No adult relationships are discussed in primary classrooms in RC schools. No heterosexual relationships, no homosexual relationships, or any other sorts of relationships.

The earliest you will find any introduction to the topic of relationships might be around age 11 but the human reproductive system will be approached first, including a 'what to expect in puberty' module.

This is because the RC church considers human relationships, sex and sexuality to be serious topics worthy of more in depth examination and discussion than the sentimental claptrap about 'love' I have seen here. Small children are not capable of absorbing any of what the RC church includes in its approach to addressing these topics.

I'm getting bored of having to constantly repeat myself for your benefit.

Not doing anything to disprove the disjoint sets of good person and religious person.

And I don't have to address your silly binary. Like all memes masquerading as thought, it deserves no attention from me.

nextDayDelivery · 07/02/2018 04:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

mathanxiety · 07/02/2018 04:45

www.lgiu.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Relationships-sex-and-PSHE-education-%E2%80%93-Children-and-Social-Work-Act-2017.pdf
From1NeedPampering's link:

"On 1 March 2017 the Government tabled amendments to the Children and Social Work Bill which place a duty on the Secretary of State for Education to make regulations requiring:
• All primary schools in England to teach age-appropriate ‘relationships education’; and
• All secondary schools in England to teach age-appropriate ‘relationships and sex education’

"The amendments create a power enabling the Government to make regulations requiring PSHE to be taught in academies and maintained schools (it is already compulsory in independent schools).

"Parents will continue to have a right to withdraw their children from sex education [which will take place in secondary school]. Schools will retain a flexibility over how they deliver the subjects. And faith schools will continue to be able to teach in accordance with the tenets of their faith...

"...In a Commons written statement on Sex and Relationships Education, accompanying the publication of the amendments (1 March 2017), the Secretary of State Justine Greening said:
“The Department for Education will lead a comprehensive programme of engagement to set out age-appropriate subject content and identify the support schools need to deliver high-quality teaching. Regulations and statutory guidance will then be subject to full public consultation before being laid subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.” (A Parliamentary procedure which requires both House of Parliament to approve the new curriculum before it becomes law.)...

"...The Minister of State for School Standards (Nick Gibb MP) answered a number of written parliamentary questions following the June 2017 General Election about the Government’s commitment to introducing the Relationships and Sex Education Curriculum. In response (27 June 2017) to a question from Theresa Villiers MP he said:
"The Department for Education intends to conduct thorough and wide ranging engagement on relationships education and relationships and sex education. This will determine the content of the regulations and statutory guidance, covering subject content, school practice and quality of delivery. The Department will seek evidence from schools and teachers; parents and pupils; experts in safeguarding and child wellbeing; subject experts; voluntary organisations and other interested parties; and other Government departments and public sector bodies. We will set out more details about the engagement process shortly and the work to consider age appropriate subject content. This work will result in draft regulations and guidance on which we will consult. Following consultation, regulations will be laid in the House allowing for a full and considered debate."...

"...Relationships and Relationships and Sex Education will "likely" focus on:
•different types of relationships, including friendships, family relationships, dealing with strangers and, at secondary school, intimate relationships;
•how to recognise, understand and build healthy relationships, including self-respect and respect for others, commitment, tolerance, boundaries and consent, and how to manage conflict, and also how to recognise unhealthy relationships;
•how relationships may affect health and wellbeing, including mental health;
•healthy relationships and safety online; and
•factual knowledge, at secondary school, around sex, sexual health and sexuality, set firmly within the context of relationships...

"...The Government has committed to:
•retain parents’ right to withdraw their child from sex education within RSE (other than sex education in the National Curriculum as part of science), as currently, but not from relationships education at primary. "This is because parents should have the right to teach this themselves in a way which is consistent with their values," says the policy statement.
•ensuring that the education provided to pupils in Relationships Education and RSE is appropriate to the age of pupils and their religious background."
......

Here is the wording from the Children and Social Work Act 2017 - 2017 c. 16Part 1CHAPTER 4Section 34:
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2017/16/section/34/enacted
(3)The regulations must provide that guidance given by virtue of subsection (2)(a) is to be given with a view to ensuring that when relationships education or relationships and sex education is given—

(a)the pupils learn about—

(i)safety in forming and maintaining relationships,

(ii)the characteristics of healthy relationships, and

(iii)how relationships may affect physical and mental health and well-being, and

(b)the education is appropriate having regard to the age and the religious background of the pupils.

Children and Social Work Act 2017
2017 c. 16Part 1CHAPTER 4Section 35
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2017/16/section/35/enacted
(3)Before making the regulations, the Secretary of State must consult such persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.

catwoozle · 07/02/2018 04:46

Sometimes faith schools are the only options allocated to parents in some areas. It might have been a matter of choice for the OP, but most parents only have the illusion of choice open to them in terms of schools.

Challenge away, OP and good luck to you. This issue is much bigger than your school. The more people challenge crap like this the less schools will be able to get away with it.

mathanxiety · 07/02/2018 04:52

...So it very much appears that the Coalition for Marriage's concerns about age appropriate material are shared by the government, and that the government deems age appropriateness and presumed religious affiliation of children to be factors that will be taken into account in coming up with a curriculum.

mathanxiety · 07/02/2018 05:01

Jassy
I’m not sure that you understand that religious schools have responsibilities to those who bankroll them, and the interplay between church and state when the church wants to be able to be operate within state frameworks with state money. Essentially, it involves compromises.

I for one would not wish to live in this sort of Orwellian universe.
I am sure you would not want to live in some backward part of the US where individual school districts may decide that he who pays the piper calls the tune, so therefore creationism is taught as fact and science is regarded with suspicion.

Be thankful that this is not in fact the case in the UK.

mathanxiety · 07/02/2018 05:13

nextDayDelivery
It teaches people ... external blame.

I hate religion and the things it does and tricks people into doing in its name.

Ah, the serpent story.

Again, I cannot resist the temptation (no pun intended) to point out the layers of irony here.

JassyRadlett · 07/02/2018 06:41

No adult relationships are discussed in primary classrooms in RC schools. No heterosexual relationships, no homosexual relationships, or any other sorts of relationships.

With respect math, that’s utter nonsense and I suspect you know it.

I for one would not wish to live in this sort of Orwellian universe.

Compromise is Orwellian? Gosh.

I am sure you would not want to live in some backward part of the US where individual school districts may decide that he who pays the piper calls the tune, so therefore creationism is taught as fact and science is regarded with suspicion.

Indeed I wouldn’t. Which is why I’m glad the state has stepped in here in Britain and said ‘just because you provide the buildings, you don’t get to teach creationism, and you must teach evolution’ to those faith schools that wished to do exactly what you described.

mathanxiety · 07/02/2018 18:14

No, insisting that schools have 'responsibility' to those who pay the bills is Orwellian.

If you admit the principle that he who pays the piper calls the tune and you think this is a good thing, wait until some right wing nutjob government arrives and decides evolution is a heap of hooey.

If you don't think this could happen because this is Britain and good sense will always triumph, you can google the thoughts of the Democratic Unionist Party on creationism and a few other topics.

The current Conservative Party government depends on the DUP for HoC support. It has already been suggested in the context of the ongoing Brexit debate that the DUP are the tail that wags the dog.

As illustrated by the process by which the Act under discussion came into being, curriculum changes come about in a consultative process. The Gove curriculum change proposals underwent a consultative process of sorts too. That particular event was more like a kick to the derriere as consultative processes go, but nevertheless the principle of consensus among stakeholders when it comes to curriculum is well established. Government does not dictate despite paying the bills. This is because the government's money comes from the taxpayers. It is held in trust and used on their behalf.

It is 100% not nonsense that relationships of any kind are not discussed in RC primary schools. What is focused on, and what the government (and other stakeholders) wish primary schools to focus on (see the link I posted to the legislation, plus quotes form it) is basically self-esteem training, knowing how to recognise healthy and unhealthy relationships, respect for yourself and for others, and how to say no.

What has put the wind up the government, as well as huge numbers of parents, medical professionals and educators in the UK, as everywhere, is the sexting epidemic and the influence of pornography on children's expectations of relationships. These problems are related, they are devastating, and quite rightly but far too late, the PSHE primary curriculum seems set to explicitly focus henceforth on respect for oneself and for other people. The secondary curriculum will continue the focus on respect and additionally will include details on specific relationships and sexual health plus other topics (see the link to the legislation and the LA organisation summary that was also posted by 1Need Pampering ).

JassyRadlett · 07/02/2018 18:46

No, insisting that schools have 'responsibility' to those who pay the bills is Orwellian.

You must struggle in the workplace. Grin

You think the state should give money to the church to educate children within the state system - often as the only local option for children - with no strings attached on how those children are educated? That’s fairly extreme.

If you admit the principle that he who pays the piper calls the tune and you think this is a good thing, wait until some right wing nutjob government arrives and decides evolution is a heap of hooey.

So taking your argument to its logical conclusion - is your argument that the state should run no schools? All should be run by churches?

In the extreme situation you reference, what makes you think religious extremists would keep giving money to reasonably moderate churches?

I still absolutely don’t believe you that no one ever mentions or discusses marriage, or people being married, for example, in an RC primary school. For one thing, you’d have to chuck out 90% of the reading books.

For another, teachers at RC schools on this thread have said it’s not the case.

JassyRadlett · 07/02/2018 18:57

Also, I think you need to reread Orwell. I’m not sure what you think Orwellian means. ‘Freely and willingly accepting funding that comes with certain conditions’ doesn’t really fit, though.

mathanxiety · 09/02/2018 06:11

There is a difference between mentioning something in passing or using reading material that mentions marriage in passing, and discussing it. Marriage is not discussed for the majority of the primary years.

So taking your argument to its logical conclusion - is your argument that the state should run no schools? All should be run by churches?
I pointed out that consultation is the current model of curriculum building. Like it or lump it, what is currently in the curriculum is the result of a previous consultative process and what will emerge in the new curriculum will be the result of another consultative process. It will reflect a broad consensus among the stakeholders.

I’m not sure that you understand that religious schools have responsibilities to those who bankroll them, and the interplay between church and state when the church wants to be able to be operate within state frameworks with state money. Essentially, it involves compromises.
If your argument - that he who pays the piper calls the tune - ever prevailed, then that consultative process would go out the window.

You are right to say there are compromises. The state compromises. Maybe the state compromises because it understands whose money it is that it is spending. Maybe insisting on dictating to schools would result in uproar and would have electoral repercussions. The state can insist on evolution being taught because evolution is accepted by the vast majority of citizens. It can only push so far, as demonstrated by the Gove history curriculum debacle.

You have got it wrong when you say that the church wishes to operate within state frameworks. It was the state that wished to operate within church frameworks that already existed in 1944 as well as those that sprang up afterwards, with the state coming to the education table very late in the day. The history of UK education is one of complicated patchwork involving multiple layers and overlapping areas of control, not a clearcut, linear development like the American Land Grant universities. The state entered a crowded landscape in the UK.

The 1944 Settlement distinguished between 'voluntary maintained' and 'voluntary aided' status for schools. RC schools are 'voluntary aided' and with this status comes considerable scope for religious or founding influence in schools. You seem unaware of this legislation, but it is the basis for the 'interplay between church and state' that currently exists. The right to religious/founder influence has never been waived by the voluntary aided schools, and governments have never sought to overturn the right.

Orwellian:
"characteristic of the writings of George Orwell, especially with reference to his dystopian account of a future totalitarian state in 'Nineteen Eighty-Four'."

Yes, that is exactly what I had in mind.

gussyfinknottle · 09/02/2018 06:39

Rubbish Catholic here. Ironically couldn't get my child into my first choice non-denom primary school.
You can pull your child out of PSE class at our place and I recently gave The feedback requested by the school to say family life is more complex than husband and wife as large minority of class cohort evidences. I won't pull my dd out but I have always told her about equal marriage, divorce, single parents etc as being entirely routine in family life and not sub-optimal in some way.

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