...to report friend to hmrc

[HMRCorNot]

I have name changed for this

Close friend has at least 3 rental properties in prime locations. She Has been receiving rental income for over 10 years. Amounting to 6 figures(incl any mortgage amounts) Never declared.

She is In highest tax bracket so will be selecting no in drop down box for rental income on tax return which starts blank and then has two options yes or no - so no excuse to “forget” or not know.

I am also landlord and high earner so no jealousy. I find it immoral and unfair let alone illegal. She is surprised I declare!

Would IBU to report?

Can this be traced to me?

Can’t get comfortable either way.

Scared of reporting but feel ill that she feels she should be exempt from paying.

Wwyd? Aibu?

Mermaid I don't think the OP's upset is relevant. The important point is that the behaviour immoral and illegal.

If this woman thought about it she might consider than anyone close to her, friends or family would be upset by her breaking the law because it's dangerous for her, quite apart from the wider social consequences of tax evasion. She must know this, we know the OP has warned her and she still persists, so one can only infer she doesn't care.

As regards being a 'guide' - good luck with that. I don't find friends pay much attention to advice they don't want to hear, other than perhaps in hindsight. And if friends know you would judge them for something, they will refrain from telling you.

From what the OP says this is not a close friend just a 'friend'.

halesie - thank you I like your post it’s very very helpful. I think it drums in the severity of it and how it’s viewed by the authorities. I also had in my memory banks that tax evasion was linked to money laundering so all is helpful. I also recollect (possibly incorrctly) that tax is the only crime you are guilty until proven innocent- maybe I am mistaken but that’s one reason why I declared property when I was still below self assessment threshold. The fear and yes one would hope the morality! I am wondering from your post if that’s now the reason it’s not been declared. The hole is dug and getting deeper. How she sleeps is anyone’s guess.

Canyouguess - that is really well put thank you. I apprecite that.

so to clear a few things up... Over time this has been discussed. and not in a corner huddled in a speakeasy ... over a dinner party table (yes others present). I have not vented my "political position” on this but instead listed out why I declare tax, playing mostly to the fear and "we are comming to get you" adverts with the footsteps. I have of course added thats its illegal and the right thing to do etc. How are you not uncomfortable with the tax man over your shoulder etc.... however knowing my audience i have swayed away from a full on assult.

given what halesie and Canyouguess have said I am rethinking this. Maybe now is the time to lay it all out.

Someone asked why I am keeping it secret and going behind backs? Well as a Pp said “you know what happens to grasses” and that’s why. Why should I end up the bad person with no friends. Even if in utopian mumsnet land we should not be friends with people like that!

Again and finally this woman is a friend. I am using the word close because there is a relationship there beyond a casual acquaintance or Work colleague. But no not best friends - I would have absolutely NO problem telling My best anything pp have written. There are also other relationships to consider that makes it more complex. However that is not the point of my post.

You have all made me think and I thank you. I am surprised to find I wouldn’t hesitate to tell on someone who I don’t know so well. But I can’t here. What does that make me? Hmmmm

Also i am surprised to say i have discovered a rather spiteful reasoning on my part. I have in my posts said she needs to declare because it’s morally correct and I hope she does. But I also want her to pay the full amount of what she owes. not some amnesty amount. Why? Because she owes it ALL and because i have paid ALL of mine.

So there we have it .... still confused but I thank you all

you know what happens to grasses, don't you?

What happens? Do tell.

I've been grassing uncovering and reporting fraud for over 25 years. I haven't acquired a pair of concrete boots and been chucked into the Thames.

Nothing happens to people who do the moral thing and report fraud.

I am surprised to find I wouldn’t hesitate to tell on someone who I don’t know so well. But I can’t here. What does that make me? Hmmmm

To put it bluntly OP, that makes you a person with double standards.

.

Good Luck HMRCorNot.. I wish you well x

One council has set up a landlord register to try to get more landlords to become official due to all the beds in sheds and other shady deals that were ongoing. The op probably won't be able to sleep well with the knowledge that she has been provided with. I agree her friend should be paying tax minus allowable expenses. So I agree report anonymously

I'm a tax inspector

Report her. I see this day in day out. If there's proof the behaviour was a deliberate action then it can be investigated back 20 years

@BishopBrennansArse no I wouldn’t for exactly the same reasons. Why would you assume I would?

You don't know for sure that she is failiing to declare this income. It could be bravado chat. If she does declare it and you report her for tax evasion, that is seriously defamation. If she finds out about it and can trace it to you, you may be on the wrong end of a lawsuit.

What a ridiculous comment. So if someone told you they'd committed a violent crime, you'd keep the information from the police just in case they were lying, for some inexplicable reason, and decided to sue you for defamation? Of course you can report someone you suspect even if you're not absolutely certain. OP is talking about reporting the (verbal) evidence she has to HMRC, not splashing 'THIS WOMAN DOESN'T PAY HER TAXES' across the front page of a national paper, for God's sake.

The amount of bollocks people come out with on this site sometimes, I'm amazed they're able to get through life at all...

RidingWildHorses..Lets agree to disagree. I respect you and your opinions but still believe that you are a bit mad 😘😍😘

Phsycomath (love the name btw) a lot of the convo in this post is about the fact that this “tax avoiding” person happens to be a close friend of the OP..The OP is looking for advice, not a lecture

Jeez..disregard that last post, Sorry Phsyco..I’m on the wine now x

tax is the only crime you are guilty until proven innocent

This is true.
if you are selected for investigation and there are discrepancies proven the Inspector can reasonably deduce that you have been equally dishonest over the past 6 years *or more.
The onus is on the taxpayer to PROVE that they have not under declared for the past many many years,
Do you have the faintest idea how difficult it is to prove that?

I should add it is only difficult to prove innocence when one is guilty, as the truly innocent are discounted very early in the process.
it is always so, so obvious.

I think I would try to persuade her to declare them and offer to help her with accounts. If she refused I would tell her I thought its unfair to those who do pay tax and that I was going to report it in 1 month this giving her chance to think we over. Then I would report and not be her friend anymore. I am quite an honest and open person and so I could neither be her friend and not respect her nor go behind her back and not offer her support.

HMRC can and do investigate people for relatively small amounts - undeclared rental income amounting to six figures would be well worth their time and effort and could be at the level where there would public disclosure of the tax evasion (deliberate defaulters of £25k or more who haven't co-operated with the authorities).

Interesting to read the responses here.

Person avoids tax/commits fraud the advice is to report them.

Person claims too much in benefits/working on the side/committing fraud the advice is to keep your nose out.

Surely they are both as bad as one another?

No matter who or what the issue was, if they're doing something illegal then you need to report them. How do you think so much crime is gotten away with because some one knew about it and didn't report it?

Person avoids tax/commits fraud the advice is to report them.

Person claims too much in benefits/working on the side/committing fraud the advice is to keep your nose out.

Surely they are both as bad as one another?

I'd report both. 🤷🏻‍♀️
I wish more people would. I pay all my tax, I don't pay Workman in cash, I employ a cleaner who has a proper business etc etc etc

People who commit fraud are thieves. I find it strange that it so acceptable.

(BTW I wouldn't do it myself but I do understand why people arent 100% honest in some circumstances. (Ie a little bit of common sense isn't always unwarranted)

Greece has suffered hugely from a general culture of tax evasion. Where evading tax becomes an accepted norm, with everyone turning a blind eye to it, because everyone knows that everyone does it, the entire country ends up in the shit. I'm fed up with people's justifications for evading tax. There are lots of ways you are actively encouraged to limit your tax bill - to encourage people to save, the government encourages people to put money in ISAs, it has also raised the nil rate band for lower earners. There are also lots of ways you are openly and clearly allowed to limit your tax bill. To justify going beyond what is encouraged or allowed into what is an unintended loophole and then beyond that into actual evasion is just 100% wrong. It may happen accidentally if you have little knowledge or understanding of tax law, because tax law is complicated, but to do it deliberately is just seriously self centred, selfish, shitty behaviour and should be reported.

Yes.

Mn does attract the playground type. ' don't sneak!' ' don't grass!' ' keep it, they can afford it'. Bet they would be blubbering loudly if they got defrauded or burgled.

My sister and husband were heavily fined, both of them. I was secretly pleased they are a bit flag waving communists until it comes to themselves. I hasten to add I didn't report them

@MyKingdomForBrie great (not passive aggressive).

Most people who don't want to report tax evasion generally do report benefit fraud. It's a double standard I hate.

Whilst I don't agree with your view - I believe both tax evasion and benefit fraud are theft and would report both - at least you're consistent in your views.

Also think that tax evaders and benefit cheats are often a different demographic so many people don’t know both, making it an unrealistic comparison

This woman has been able to become wealthy because she lives in the country where most people pay their taxes and most people aren't corrupt
She's cheating .... free riding on the honesty of everyone else
Maybe not everyone else I mean obviously some people are corrupt but corruption only 'pays off' in a situation where most people play by the rules

If corruption is the norm that the whole country goes down the pan as per the previous comment from @roundaboutthetown about Greece