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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Alfie Evans

999 replies

IcySlippy · 01/02/2018 11:50

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/alfie-evans-parents-plead-sons-14231597

Anyone following this?

OP posts:
PinkRedBlue · 21/04/2018 18:15

I’ve just seen the photos as the page is public again.

Would Alfie have a nurse with him the whole time the family aren’t there?

Any medical people know what could cause the burn shown in the photo of Alfie’s hand?

IronicWitttUsername · 21/04/2018 18:20

I think There should be a nurse all the time in picu occasionally they will nip out in my experience. But the alarms are on if anything happens.

I don't know what happens if a few childrens arrest or something at once. Would they make s judgement and leave the ones that seem stable alone to save others? May well do. Especially as they usually run to capacity. (If you watched last week's hosp documentary)

Confusedbeetle · 21/04/2018 18:20

I will not comment on the individual case. I am depressed that yet another very poorly child is in this situation. And I am very sorry for dedicated doctors and nurses who daily face tragedy and grief, and try their very best. Try and walk in their shoes for a moment. The parents are acting through grief, sometimes not in the best interest of the child

LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 21/04/2018 18:26

There's posts on there about the doctors and nurses being murderers for turning off a light support. Except this happens all the time. Part of what sometimes they have to do. Just a odd/horrible statement to make.

Those photos are horrible but sharing them is only going to feed into the fury more.

miffytherabbit1974 · 21/04/2018 18:26

@JediStoleMyBike

Yes, the same has happened on Instagram. Photographs with comments allegedly claiming some pretty incredible things "done" to the child by staff etc.

I can't even begin to imagine how the other parents of unwell children in Alderhey are dealing with all of this propaganda swirling around, not to mention the unwanted noise, crowds of protestors and media attention every time they enter or leave the hospital.

Confusedbeetle · 21/04/2018 18:38

To the poster who commented on the doctors laughing in court, again I cannot comment on what I don't know, and without a doubt, they should comport themselves better in court. Stressed people (including professionals ) sometimes get it wrong. laughter, grief, anger and stress are bedmates. Medical students have dreadful gallows humour to survive sometimes

cocoabutterformula · 21/04/2018 18:40

Crikey those pictures are awful but yes just a snapshot in who knows what other circumstances. No-where is perfect.

IronicWitttUsername · 21/04/2018 18:50

I got cellulitis in hosp Due to an error with a line however they also saved my life and kept me breathing so you have to look at the big picture

Shrimpi · 21/04/2018 19:11

I'm speculating but a "burn" like wound (haven't seen the pictures) could be caused by extravasation injury. They often look at exactly like burns. A very sick child with difficult to control seizures and / or who goes through periods of sickness during which they cannot safely be fed will need multiple cannula (needle) procedures to give them medication and fluids. Extravasation is a risk from this or even "inevitable" given enough cannulas (veins get worse making access difficult). This is one of many cumulative costs of keeping a child alive indefinitely who cannot ever get better. No doubt there are a number of other illnesses and complications Alfie is repeatedly subjected to as a consequence of his treatments. It is difficult to imagine even if Alfie's parents had their wish that he wouldn't still have to spend a majority of his time in hospital just to stay alive. He is ventilated and will repeatedly suffer from chest infections and seizure exacerbations for as long as he is alive, I would imagine.

It's also a misunderstanding to say Alfie has "no diagnosis". He has degenerative metabolic disorder. The genetic cause might be completely unique to him and virtually undiscoverable (with present technology) but doesn't mean that what has happened to his body and brain can't be understood or predicted. Some people can be diagnosed with cystic fibrosis based on the clinical findings but will never have a specific genetic diagnosis if they have a unique mutation. The human genome is unfathomably large.

As well meaning as I'm sure people are, uninformed members of the public need to understand the depth of their ignorance before they cast judgements in cases like these. Alfie's army don't know what they don't know.

MorningCuppa · 21/04/2018 19:19

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Shrimpi · 21/04/2018 19:22

@IronicWitttUsername

Nobody has to make an error to cause an extravasation +/- phlebitis +/- cellulitis from a cannula. Despite best efforts to reduce the risk (cleaning, flashback, flushing before giving, changing them regularly - has to be balanced against the difficulties putting a new one in) it can't be prevented 100%.

Of course it's also possible that someone's (or collective) bad practice led to your infection! If they didn't clean before putting it in, if it was "missed" and left in too long etc

Just sometimes when you work in health care, it feels as though the public don't understand that it's impossible to prevent all complications, and upsetting when there always has to be someone to "blame". Happens all the time.

miffytherabbit1974 · 21/04/2018 19:25

@Shrimpi

Your comment is really thoughtful, balanced and well put. And informative.

Shrimpi · 21/04/2018 19:29

@MorningCuppa

I don't know if it's just me I can't see any pictures or an attachment to pictures.

My point is you have no idea what it is. Because it looks like a burn doesn't mean it is one. It could be a healing extravasation from elsewhere, he could have had a cannula in his thumb, it could be a reaction to a medicine used to treat another rash, it could be an infective rash, it could have been a rubbed area from a cannula splint, it could have been an area of skin breakdown related to oedema (common in dependant itu patients).

To conclude it is a "burn" is to think the worst of the hospital (because of your own attitudes about this case) with no supporting evidence. They are unable to make statements to defend themselves because of a need to protect Alfie's privacy and dignity.

Ask yourself whether it even makes sense for Alfie to have a burn on the outside of his thumb?

Tomselleckhaskindeyes · 21/04/2018 19:30

The burn like wound is a pressure sore. This is what happens when an individual is sedentary and in the sane position. I should imagine the one on the face is too from all the ventilation equipment. As for being wet he is a baby and needed changing. We have no idea how long he was like that. If my baby was wet I would get a nurse and help to change him not take photos.

MorningCuppa · 21/04/2018 19:36

Oh sorry Shrimpi I'm not sure why you can't see the picture attachment. Sorry I've just looked again it is actually below the outside of the thumb, I'm sure these are just 2 pictures of many more to come.
Thank you for your explanation and information your posts are very informative.

throwcushions · 21/04/2018 19:38

As well meaning as I'm sure people are, uninformed members of the public need to understand the depth of their ignorance before they cast judgements in cases like these. Alfie's army don't know what they don't know.

Yes, this exactly. And they don't want to listen to anyone else for the most part.

Shrimpi · 21/04/2018 19:55

@MorningCuppa

Maybe it's because I'm on my phone I can't see the pictures?

Also, that's quite alright! Again, most people have their hearts in the right place - they are saddened and worried about the wellbeing of a poor little boy. It's just so easy to come to a misunderstanding. Hospitals do make mistakes sometimes but there are also some things which seem to be obviously a "mistake" or "harm" or "neglect" when in fact there are many other explanations that would (could) not occur to those who do not work in that setting.

Alfie is very sick and it is only because of the miracle of modern technology and continuous intensive care that he is alive at all. When you really think about it, medicines and machines are breathing for him, feeding him, acting to prevent fatal seizures, regulating his temperature, trying to keep his skin intact... In non-developed settings (and throughout history) simple illnesses like diarrhoea and bronchiolitis kill something like at least 1/5th of all children under 5 and any minor disadvantage is very likely to result in death under the age of 5.

Obviously, the change is brilliant (an understatement!) but the sheer power of medicine to keep people alive has also allowed us to create scenarios where the ethical implications become very difficult. I don't think our society is able to cope with the concept of natural death, sometimes even in the extremely elderly.

I really worry that cases like these put pressure on parents to fight for prolonged death or else feel somehow responsible for their child's passing. Just an awful scenario really. Ideally a child known to have a degenerative metabolic disease should not be ventilated if failing to breathe on their own is the natural progression of their disease. But there is sometimes uncertainty or the parents are not yet able to accept what is happening. It feels as though he Alfie's parents will never be able to accept the reality of his disease.

PinkRedBlue · 21/04/2018 20:00

Thanks for the explanation Shrimpi.

An ITU nurse has commented on fb and said that one of the photos looks like Alfie has just had his tube changed. Unfortunately this can cause trauma (explains the blood) and also secretions.

LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 21/04/2018 20:03

Good on them for trying but they're going to get ignored going by the rest of the comments on there.

Lymmmummy · 21/04/2018 20:07

I am currently a SAHM with too much time on my hands tbh and was interested in this case as am from local area

Out of interest I looked at their Facebook feed - honestly shocking

Also there are all types of things going up like tom is passing through the airport all get there now as if he is loving all the attention

I do wonder if in hindsight they could have been given permission to leave as they have just dragged alder heys name through the mud and maybe it shouldn’t have got this far

Also wonder if these types of cases should not be allowed to generate publicity and be made anonymous / heard in private type thing as I do think they are loving the battle a bit more than the cause itself

All in all very tragic case on so many levels

throwcushions · 21/04/2018 20:11

Either way this case and Charlie Gard's have motivated me to donate regularly to AH and GOSH to support the brilliant work they do.

Lymmmummy · 21/04/2018 20:28

Also I think the Mum is very much with the father on this I don’t think he is forcing his agenda onto her although he is seeming to thrive on the publicity

derxa · 21/04/2018 20:31

Also I think the Mum is very much with the father on this God in heaven.

MyGuideJools · 21/04/2018 20:32

shrimpi I agree totally with your post. I too think it's extravisation injury, which as you say is the fault of nobody and is the consequence of prolonged ventilation and cannulisation.
I also agree that the other photo looks like it's been taken straight after a tube change, there is often a tiny bit of blood and secretion.
I've no idea why Mr Evans decides to take these photos. I guess he's so desperate he's looking for any little thing to pick onConfused
it's all extremely sad

cocoabutterformula · 21/04/2018 20:42

I cannot imagine how awful the atmosphere must be when anyone is carrying out procedures with him waving a camera around. The staff must feel so under pressure, agree with donations to GOSH and AH, just to show support if nothing else.

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