Gender neutral toilets in Primary School

[Nanodust]

So a recent visit to a new school that has opened also included confirmation that it will be the last Primary School to have gender segregated toilets.

All new Primary schools in the area will be ‘unisex’ (gender neutral) as described by Head.

Thoughts on this? I’m not against gender neutral toilets, I am indifferent as a toilet is a toilet. However for younger kids it’s sometimes the only place to get some headspace etc. I wonder how it will all go....

it angers me that by trying to be inclusive we re taking rights and choices away from others. Due to personal experiences I have no desire to share a toilet, changing space or any other vulnerable place with a man. Women and girls have enough risk management daily as it is, we really don't need new ones. Transwomen and girls I have no issue. But no to the men.

However I also want to live in an inclusive world, but making everything neutral doesn't create that. Having three options does in my opinion. Male. Female. Neutral. Let people have a choice about where they feel comfortable and what works best for them.

Unisex toilets are also bad from the hygiene point of view as boys are much messier than girls.

Boys are clearly sexualised at a much younger age that when I was a school, judging by some of the views and experience on here. We all changed in the same classroom in year 6 and none of the boys would have dreamed of looking/saying anything inappropriate/teasing.

But is all this sex segregation (I’m talking kids areas here, men/women are different) a reaction to the deterioration of young boys behaviour/parenting over the past couple decades? Or are they inherently more likely to be inappropriate around girls? Because that’s not my experience from childhood so can only assume it’s the former.

girls and women are wrong/old fashioned if they are embarrassed about menstruation in front of men?

It's wrong if we allow this kind of thing to go unchallenged. Menstruation is just a normal part of everyday life, why should girls be embarrassed by it in front of either men or women? Whilst there's no need for shouting about it, it shouldn't be hidden , taboo or something to be embarrassed about either.

The thing is lots of toilets have been 'gender neutral' for years, but no one cared until they started to call them 'gender neutral'. My dd is in primary. The toilets are all in one big room (where they hang their bags and coats). There are technically stalls marked for boys and girls, but they are all in the same toilet/changing room and technically they can use either if they want/if one is full. I'm sure that's been like that for a bizillion years as it's a very old village school and nothing we do around here is particularly 'new age' as it's a very traditional area. It doesn't seem weird at all to my dd. She came from a preschool where they used open toilets all in one room. She and her best friend (who is a boy) used to sit and have long chats on the toilets right next to each other (no stalls or dividers). She does like a bit of privacy now, but I doubt she thinks it's odd that the boys use stalls in the same room.

Im talking kids areas here, men/women are different) a reaction to the deterioration of young boys behaviour/parenting

To me it symptomatic of making all girls and women feel like they need to protect themselves,see themselves as victims, when in fact we need to deal more harshly with those who seek to do harm. We shouldn't be raises girls who see it as inevitable boys/men will victimize them, else we perpetuate the idea that it is inevitable women will be downtrodden to men. It's not inevitable and we shouldn't be teaching our girls and boys that

We need to raise standards for all. Why is it OK for a little boys bath room to be messier than the girls (if indeed they are?) why is ok for a school to accepting a boy treating a communal resource disrespectly because their boys, why is it inevitable that girls will be cleaner tidier and more considerate? Why is it worse for a girl to enter a messy toilet than another boy? Already, even at primary school at most basic level, we are perpetuating gender stereotypes.

I'm not sure where in the country you are OP, but the building contractor I work for are building new and extending a few primary schools this year and for the two I have looked at this morning nursery to Y2 are unisex and between the relevant classrooms and Y3 to Y6 are separated into boys and girls with a few stalls in each.

To me it symptomatic of making all girls and women feel like they need to protect themselves,see themselves as victims, when in fact we need to deal more harshly with those who seek to do harm.

Agree with the second half but acknowledging differences in biology doesn't make a female a victim.

We need to raise standards for all. Why is it OK for a little boys bath room to be messier than the girls (if indeed they are?) why is ok for a school to accepting a boy treating a communal resource disrespectly because their boys, why is it inevitable that girls will be cleaner tidier and more considerate? Why is it worse for a girl to enter a messy toilet than another boy?

Again, I agree partly. There is no reason for boys to be messier. But there are biological differences in the way males and female use the toilets - girls have to sit down to wee which is why it is worse for them if there is piss all over the seat. Boys can stand to avoid.

Toffeelatte I agree. I guess it’s a bit of a chicken and egg. Ultimately girls and boys seem to be conditioned more nowadays. I was also wondering about the messy comments. What happened to boys just being taught to put the loo seat up? Do we expect so little of boys nowadays?

To me it symptomatic of making all girls and women feel like they need to protect themselves,see themselves as victims, when in fact we need to deal more harshly with those who seek to do harm. We shouldn't be raises girls who see it as inevitable boys/men will victimize them, else we perpetuate the idea that it is inevitable women will be downtrodden to men.

thats a lovely notion but we live in a culture where women are oppressed worldwide.

Sex segregation for things such as toilets and changing rooms aren't always about victimisation. Its about dignity too.

You know there are women who don't want to undress around men. Their reasons vary from religious reasons to assault and rape. All are valid.

There are men who get off to women peeing.
There are men who place cameras in unisex loos, female changing rooms etc to wank off to later. lots of news reports worldwide of this.

There are men who's main aim is to shock women and girls into seeing their genitalia for sexual gratification.
Women are raped in unisex loos such as the examples in india. They are fighting for sex segregated loos and yet here we are pushing for unisex ones for what? to appease a tiny minority? because thats what removing sex segregated spaces is really about. Its about appeasing a minority with mental health needs at the expense of women and girls.

Sex segregated washrooms, changing rooms wards and toilets have always been about meeting the needs of each sex during their vulnerable moments and to remove them is harmful to both men and women.

I started my periods during primary school and would have been extremely uncomfortable dealing with that in a space with boys in.

when in fact we need to deal more harshly with those who seek to do harm

You might like to have a look at the Marie Dean case to see that the trans lobby's idea of 'dealing harshly with those who seek to do harm' is putting them in a women's prison with access to a whole new sea of victims who are the most vulnerable in our society

To me it symptomatic of making all girls and women feel like they need to protect themselves,see themselves as victims, when in fact we need to deal more harshly with those who seek to do harm.

Why is having separate toilets for bodily differences making people feel like they need to protect themselves or see themselves as victims? Is this how people with disabilities who use disabled toilets also feel?

Blueletter but we’re talking about kids here? How do you start to change things? By essentially labelling boys aged 10 as unsafe to use a loo in a school near a girl? I don’t know what’s going on in the world, my dd is only 3, but it doesn’t surprise me when I see threads on here about parents preferring little girls. You’ll get parents of boys saying how lovely they are and how they’re no different to girls, then you come onto any other thread and the underlying message is essentially that males are dangerous, starting from childhood (is what you’re implying). I’m expecting dc 2 and I’m actually scared of trying to raise a boy in today’s world of internet porn, seemingly greater divides between the sexes and less equality, and where they can’t be trusted to even put a toilet seat up. I just don’t know how parents navigate the challenge of raising respectful males!

No no no no no not good.

They won't be floor to ceiling doors for safety reasons. The differences in boys and girls socially are visible very early on. I've noticed massive changes between pre school and yr 1 and 2s. Making toilets GN will serve only to make it worse.

Girls need girls only space.

I think sone people need to get their heads out their arses and realise just how inappropriate and unpleasant boys can be even when it's not really motivated.

Course girls can be Madams too but imagine being a girl having to put up with the queen bee and the boys in the toilets...

Just no

Not sexually motivated

That should say.

I don't have any issues with gender neutral toilets in general. Several work places I have had used this system. However I don't think primary schools are a good place to introduce this. Children are immature and silly as they are children. There is a certain amount of bad behaviour, silliness and curiosity that could cause problems. I mean deliberate looking over and under toilet cubicles and doors. 8-10yr old school boys are often pretty silly about these things and would find this very funny. They would not understand the consequences necessarily. Sounds like it will cause teachers a lot of time and stress having another place to supervise along with the playground and lunch hall, etc.
It seems premature. When gender neutral toilets are the norm everywhere the children will be use to them so it won't be so much of an issue. It's just not the environment to change first in my opinion.

I think the difference between school gates and toilets is gender roles (gates) vs biological needs and protection from unwanted sexual contact or exposure due to biological differences.

No from me. Might work in some schools and for some children, but as a girl I was terrified of kiss chase in the playground where boys would try to pull up our skirts. That was with supervision. I would have felt scared and avoided going to the loo at all.

A gender neutral uniform with a trouser option would have helped though. Can't pull my skirt up then.

Am amazed by some posters who seem to be talking as though sex neutral toilets are going to become the norm. I can't see that at all.

Rumpled - I was sexually assaulted by an older boy who was under 10. It happens. Why you would think this fact would mean I would prefer to have a daughter over a son I have no idea?!?

Primary school toilets were gender neutral when I was a child, and it was fine

justabunchofcunts, I'm aware they tried it at a middle sized(ish) hospital near me around 8 years ago. Before trans was a huge thing. They reversed it pretty quickly because the female staff and patients made it very clear they weren't happy. Whether they would still feel comfortable doing it in the current atmosphere of trans activism... who knows...?