Gay men and monogamy

[Gingermuffin]

I’m currently watching a new series of a programme on Netflix which I loved until now. I won’t say which one in case it spoils it for anyone else but it is mentioned by a therapist in couples counselling for a gay married couple that “most gay men” basically aren’t suited to monogamous relationships because men have primal natural urges and whatever. Then a couple of the gay people they know tell them the same thing.

I am not a gay man I am a straight woman but I’m a bit wtf about this. I would say offended but I’m not sure that’s the right word seeing as it’s not me that this relates to.

I googled a bit and there’s a lot of shit saying the same thing but surely that’s a really shitty outdated view and if most gay men supposedly aren’t suited to monogamy surely that applies to straight men too. Why would the gender of their partner affect how they are able to “cope” with monogamy?

I don’t judge open relationships if that’s what makes people happy and all parties consent but am just a bit wtf at the blatant and seemingly quite offensive stereotype. AIBU?

YANBU.

Yes, but you see, if you keep perpetuating this myth that men are naturally adulterers, then you have this handy excuse for cheating on hand!

It really does not suit the narrative of gay or straight men to say "hang on dude, you have a noggins and free will, so stop using some sort of natural urge to excuse you being a shit person!".

I would think in the past it would be more to do with gay men not being able to have a relationship that could get them arrested so they just has more casual encounters. I'm not gay either so that might be quite wrong but it does seem a sweeping generalisation to say that about most gay men.

It's because the assumption is that men are not naturally monogamous but women are. So when a man is with a woman, there is someone who will build an emotional bond with them and persuade them to be monogamous. If there are two men they are twice as likely to cheat. I think there are stats out there to back this theory up. I know several gay men who are absolute man whores and love shagging around... I also know of gay men who have been with their partner for years. This theory also forgets that women are just as likely to cheat, but not as likely to get found out or be open about it

Why do girls like pink?
Why are gay men camp?
Why do poor kids do worse on exams?

The reasons behind all these stereotypes are sociological and can be changed.

FWIW every gay or bi bloke I've happened to know has been monogamous (so far as I know), but that is not true of all the lesbians, straight men or straight women I've known.

Male culture and gay culture are both changing as the world gets more equal. I think it's fairly obvious already that 'most gay men are promiscuous' is bollocks.

A gay couple in my close family have one the longest relationship. Among my older gay friends, many wonderful partnerships and marriages were cut short due to the death of a partner, rather than infidelity. It’s a little sad to see these kinds of stereotypes perpetuated. Perception and statistics seem perhaps skewered because of the relative short time span where gay couples could be open about their relationship status following decriminalisation and the tragic death toll of the original AIDS pandemic in the 1980s. That’s really took so many lives of whole generations. And quite a number of the original HIV positive survivors succumbed to long term complications. Think it’s no less common to be monogamous for gay youngsters than those identifying as hetero sexual. Many, especially young men and women might go through a period of sexual discovery, i.e. shag around and then settle for a monogamous relationship and/or marriage.

@Gingermuffin

Is it an offensive stereotype if it's proven to be true? Violence in lesbian relationships, cheating in male gay relationships. Should we pretend it doesn't exist in order to avoid causing offence? Being afraid of offending a group had horrific results in Rochdale and similarly, once young black people were identified as more likely to be violent, help and programmes could be specifically directed at a specific problem.

"if most gay men supposedly aren’t suited to monogamy surely that applies to straight men too."

Yes. You're right.

What's' the difference between a gay relationship and a straight one? Women! Straight men try to temper their behaviour to suit the woman in their life whereas gay men don't have to.

@Idontdowindows

"if you keep perpetuating this myth that men are naturally adulterers, then you have this handy excuse for cheating on hand!"

No. It's about controlling urges. I'm straight but have had 'urges' I've not acted on. Some sexual (fancying someone) and others. I found an envelope with a lot of money in once and had the urge to keep it.

Your comment suggests you look for everything to be an invention by the patriarchy for the benefit of the patriarchy.

@donquixotedelamancha

Pink - not all girls do. What's your point?

Gay men camp - that's a good question. I'm not sure "sociological" is the right answer as even now people are assumed straight unless otherwise and are more likely to be surrounded by straight people for their formative years.

Poor kids in exams - less likely to have intelligent or helpful parents. Education is less likely to be valued. Resources at home are less likely to be available. An anti-intellectual culture. Behaviour is likely to be worse in their schools as they'e been brought up with an anti-authority ideal. Their role models didn't take school seriously.

I have no idea what this has to do with the price of ham!

My now-monogamous gay brother used to be very promiscuous. He thinks there are three reasons. Firstly, casual sex on the gay scene is more acceptable and therefore is more likely. Secondly, men tend to understand men better than women. If you understand a man you're more likely to 'pull'. Thirdly, men are likely to be predisposed to feel happy with sex with multiple partners. Put a big group of them together who also are happy to have sex with each other and ...

------------

So, this is a true stereotype. It's shown by statistics to be true and we shouldn't be afraid of offence.

An interesting question is why is this such an issue for anyone. If gay men want to fuck each other all the time, crack on! I hope they have fun doing it.

Yes it is a true stereotype. It’s just not correct that gay men are equally monogamous to straight men and women. Adultery is not even recognised as grounds for divorce in gay marriage, unlike straight marriage. It is accepted within the community that casual sex will happen. Of course there are exceptions, but I can’t help but feel your experience in knowing gay men must be very limited to find that fact so shocking.

It’s very offensive. Some gay men play the field just like straight men. Some have open relationships just like straight couples do. I think most gay men in relationships are committed to monogamy though. The idea that all gay men are into orgies and anonymous sex is rubbish from what my gay male friends say, most of whom are in committed relationships.

@juliesaway

10 seconds reading would show you're wrong. Gay men are likely to have more partners and be promiscuous.

You know that correctly gathered statistics trump your anecdote, right?

Why is it offensive? It's only offensive when you impose your ideas of proper and correct behaviour on others. If you're happy to live and let live then it's nothing more than a factually correct description.

’...once young black people were identified as more likely to be violent...’

I’m sorry - what?

@RefuseTheLies

Young black males are still far more likely to commit crime, especially violent crime. The best thing that was done was to acknowledge this and look for ways to combat it; target resources towards solving the problem.

I assume you were looking to suggest I was being racist but entirely the opposite. Fear of causing offence causes problems or allows problems to continue or escalate. Intelligently analysing problems in society, not being afraid of talking about them and dealing them correctly is beneficial for all involved.

The most common cause of death amongst black men in the US is violence by other black men. We could either say "oh, you can't say that, it's racist" or you could say "young, black American men are killing each other. Why these demographics and what can we do about it. I prefer the latter. The former leads to situations like the sexual abuse in Rotherham.

People saying something inherent in gay men making them unfaithful in relationships - pretty offensive to to make that assumption.

Adultery is not even recognised as grounds for divorce in gay marriage, unlike straight marriage

This is only because the definition of adultery in law is outdated, not because it’s just accepted that gay and lesbian people are more likely to have multiple sexual partners.

Julie - I don't think people are saying it's inherent in gay men. They are saying men are more predisposed to a bit of promiscuity, but this is enhanced on the gay (male) scene because it's just men and so it's widely practiced.

Of my gay friends, certainly most of them went through that phase. Then the novelty of easy sex wore off and they all settled down into relationships or looking for partners. I have maybe ten very good gay male friends, and most of them are now in 10 year + relationships, whilst the rest are actively looking for something serious. From chatting to them, it's not an unusual pattern although of course everyone is different.

I am trying to run through all of my friends in my head and work out a rough ratio of monogamous vs open and I’d have to say about 50:50. I’m in the monogamous camp, but a good deal of my friends are openly in open relationships (and a few more that don’t publicize the fact, but do have relaxed rules around this). I would also say that I can remember more instances of non agreed extra curricular activity amongst my gay friends than straight, but it’s definitely not a science. Maybe gay men are just more open about it? If I was in an open relationship, I don’t think I would hide the fact (apart from my mum)

I have spoken to my gay friends about this before. They said that open relationships are what the majority of men truly want, as they can separate their emotions from lust. Heterosexual men are more forced into monogamous relationships as this is what most woman want. It's all tied with with raising children too.

No one has mentioned the fact that a man who sleeps with many partners is a stud while a woman who has many partners is, in the eyes of society, a slut. Gay men also have the added bonuses of not being able to get one another pregnant, are less likely to be encumbered with children and have a higher disposable income.

If I were youngish, free, single, had some cash and no one would judge me, I'd be out there every night trying a different guy.

I think the use of “cheating” in this thread is misplaced. We’re not talking about people in relationships where they have promised to be monogamous but have then secretly had sex with other people - we’re talking about people who are either just shagging around or are in a mutually agreed open relationship.

Young black males are still far more likely to commit crime, especially violent crime. The best thing that was done was to acknowledge this and look for ways to combat it; target resources towards solving the problem.

No.

DISENFRANCHISED young males are more likely to commit crime, especially violent crime.

In most of Western Europe, young black (and in mainland European countries mostly Middle-Eastern and North-African) males are the most likely to be disenfranchised because of systemic racism.

But eh, easier to perpetuate racist stereotypes than look at the reasons why disproportionally disenfranchised groups of people have less invested in the smooth operation of society eh?

I have considerable experience in this area due to a former job. There are notable differences between gay and lesbian dating.

How do lezbians date then?

Oh, you never binge watched Grace and Frankie yesterday..? 😁

I was also wondering about that, I suppose it doesn't fit in easily with our idea of how it should be, or even with the characters in the series. Thinking about my own experience of this (heterosexual woman who managed a gay bar), I think there must be truth in that. Many couples came together but was open to meet others. It wasn't a sleazy pick up bar! So I guess it is more the done thing than a standard heterosexual couple.

windows - aren't you demonstrating exactly what the PP was saying? By refusing to call a spade a spade you're part of the problem. The US was a good example of gun crime being massive problem, particularly among young black males. Trying to say anything else does them and the rest of society a disservice. Before addressing a problem you need to recognise it.

I don't think windows is demonstrating what pp said, she's just taken the analysis further.
Young black American men more likely to commit violent crime. Fact.
But why? Because they are members of a society that has disenfranchised them.
I think windows has a good point. Yes we have facts but we need to think critically about them, or they become a stick to beat people with.