Gay men and monogamy

[Gingermuffin]

I’m currently watching a new series of a programme on Netflix which I loved until now. I won’t say which one in case it spoils it for anyone else but it is mentioned by a therapist in couples counselling for a gay married couple that “most gay men” basically aren’t suited to monogamous relationships because men have primal natural urges and whatever. Then a couple of the gay people they know tell them the same thing.

I am not a gay man I am a straight woman but I’m a bit wtf about this. I would say offended but I’m not sure that’s the right word seeing as it’s not me that this relates to.

I googled a bit and there’s a lot of shit saying the same thing but surely that’s a really shitty outdated view and if most gay men supposedly aren’t suited to monogamy surely that applies to straight men too. Why would the gender of their partner affect how they are able to “cope” with monogamy?

I don’t judge open relationships if that’s what makes people happy and all parties consent but am just a bit wtf at the blatant and seemingly quite offensive stereotype. AIBU?

Know

You completely and probably deliberately did not read a word I wrote.

That is what I mean Peach.

It's so easy to stop at the first "fact" without looking further and thinking you've found the cause already.

Can I encourage everyone to read Testosterone Rex by Cordelia Fine, science book of the year by the Royal Society. She debunks the testosterone myth showing from a variety of disciplines like evolutionary biology, zoology and sociology, that is it cultural surroundings that drive gender differences and not testosterone.

So, this is a true stereotype. What's your point?

My point was that all of the stereotypes I cited are true for many members of a group, but that does not mean they describe something intrinsic to those groups. They are the product of culture (since you don't like the term sociological).

Modern gay culture is coming out of a long period of secrecy and oppression, it's not reasonable to apply these sweeping generalisations to individuals- they are rooted in a very different (if recent) era. At different points in history gay men have behaved very differently.

If there is a biological difference it will be for the reasons you describe; but I suspect the extent to which men tend away from monogamy, compared to women, is exaggerated.

Your comment suggests you look for everything to be an invention by the patriarchy for the benefit of the patriarchy.

You must be new here :-) Don't you know that The Patriarchy control everything?

So, this is a true stereotype. It's shown by statistics to be true and we shouldn't be afraid of offence.

I strongly agree that we should be able to discuss things like this without leaping to offence. The OP's point is that a therapist using basing their work on stereotypes is an idiot.

No one said that skin colour was the cause just that it's a clear demographic. You and the PP (and now me, apparently) all seem to be arguing yet agreeing.

From looking at who are victims / guilty you can begin to address issues.

Aren't there parallels when people are up in arms if a crime by a trans man isn't recorded as a crime by a man?

Getting back on topic - Gay men are still much more likely to have higher numbers of sexual partners and this isn't offensive to me. There is an increased risk of STDs and this should be addressed. Pretending a fact isn't a fact puts people at risk. By saying "this group is at risk, how can we direct funds to help them?" Is beneficial. For example, free barrier contraceptive campaigns in gay clubs.

I think windows has a good point. Yes we have facts but we need to think critically about them, or they become a stick to beat people with.

hear, hear.

Sorry didn’t intend to start the thread and disappear. I did binge watch grace and frankie as my usually high maintenance toddler seemed to be coming down with something and slept most of the day then made a miraculous recovery just after I posted. Sod’s law.

I am totally open to being told that there is truth in it, hence offended not really being the right word. I think the reason it really stood out to me is that it was suggested by the therapist as a solution in an obviously monogamous relationship because they were gay. If the same solution was suggested by a therapist to a straight monogamous couple it would probably cause outrage.

I do have gay friends, some happily single because they do enjoy sleeping around. Admittedly I know more happily single men who don’t want a relationship for that reason than I do women.

The people I know in relationships though are just as monogamous as the straight couples I know. There is the odd one that’s cheated as there is both women and straight men. The only happily open long term relationships I know of are between two heterosexual couples with no kids.

If they had said more gay men are in open relationships than heterosexual couples I don’t think it would have bothered me. What made me think wtf was that they said most gay men are in open relationships and made monogamy in a gay relationship seem unusual.

Monogamy is a bit of an archaic principle though, why should we tell ourselves we cannot be sexually attracted to more than one person?

In the gay community monogamy is linked to a greater risk of passing on STDs to a partner because when a man does cheat they then subsequently don't disclose.

And, on another note, wouldn't you rather your partner form an attraction to an actual human being or someone deal with arousal by watching porn (usually coerced, unknown ages, very poor perception of reality).

Neither men nor women are particularly suited to monogamy biologically, we are just culturally conditioned towards it (women more so than men). Blame natural selection.

It's a stereotype and it doesn't apply to all gay men, but there is somewhat a grain of truth to it.

Because for gay men sex is purely a recreational/emotional act which carries no risk of procreation. An awful lot of the social stigma around cheating and the reasons why it's not socially acceptable have their roots in moral and religious thinking surrounding procreation and therefore sex taking place in monogamous relationships.

As gay men's relationships have only recently been publicly acknowledged and don't result in children there is much less social and historical baggage tied to the expectation they will be monogamous.

So maybe not 'naturally unfaithful', but it is much easier socially and emotionally without all that social baggage to cheat.

OP, there was no criticism on the binge watch. If I wasn't doing it too, I wouldn't have known what you were referring to! I'm on a high dose of meds this week for pain, and not very mobile at the moment, so it seemed the most pleasant way to spend my day.

I don't do couple therapy specifically, and never really thought of whether I would give different suggestions to gay/heterosexual people. I have however, suggested to people in the past that they might want to reexamine what type of relationship would suit them as individuals, outside of our cultural programming.

In fact, I think they handle quite a few tricky issues with delightful lightheartedness and empathy in Grace and Frankie. Thoroughly enjoyable.

@BarbarianMum

Women are well suited to monogamy. I think it's arrogant to forget we're all animals and our only real purpose in life is to fight for the continuation of our genes. It's best for men to do this by having as many sexual partners as possible. Women in the other hand are pregnant for 40 weeks, child birth is dangerous, they breastfeed for moths (years) and human children are useless compare to most other animals' offspring.

In line with some flowers, they can have difficult to reach pollen, attracting specific birds to pollentate them. This is efficient as far as wasted pollen goes. The chance of pollenation within the same plant species is high. Other plants let any bee, bird or insect in and just hope for the best.

It suits human males better (as regards survival of their line) to procreation with any female they can. Women should be choosier as they make a significant investment when choosing a partner.

knowwhen* it's more complicated than that, as for natural selection purposes it may be more preferable for a female to mate with a male who is not her partner-if she isn't able to secure a partner who's not an "alpha male" genetically.

The OP makes complete sense to me. Sexual monogamy is biologically redundant for gay people, and also in a world where we have contraception and women are able to be financially independent of men. Society just hasn't caught up.

Most men and some women look at infidelity as they do breaking the speed limit. It's breaking the law but they do it anyway cause they want to, and they think that if they are careful they'll get away with it.

I think gay men behave exactly how straight men would behave if they could - ie, if women were up for it. But women aren't so they can't.

That is what I think is ironic about straight men who criticise the gay community by saying they are disgusting/immoral for their attitudes to multiple partners. As if those same straight guys wouldn't do exactly that if they could!

I don't think it's being offensive to say this. Nothing wrong with being non monogamous if everyone involved gives consent.

I think gay men behave exactly how straight men would behave if they could

Sigh

I don't think it's being offensive to say this.

Perhaps not, but you are being silly. Men are not so different from women. If men didn't want to be in monogamous relationships, they wouldn't be.

Men are not nearly as different from women as some on MN think. The idea that the only reason we keep it in our pants is the risk of being caught is daft. As is they idea that women don't cheat and are keeping men in line.

And of course lots of gay men are in monogamous relationships with each other, which presumably suits them just fine. It’s just a statistical difference between the two groups not a black and white distinction.

The fact that far more straight men are parents presumably has an impact.

If men didn't want to be in monogamous relationships, they wouldn't be.

But there aren't as many women around who are in to non monogamy. So for a lot of men, it's a monogamous relationship or nothing. If there were sex clubs available for straight guys, like the gay equivalent (bath houses), they would be constantly full. But why would any women attend such a place?

I know there are some straight sex clubs around. And single men are banned, while single women are welcome. Why is this? Because if they were allowed, the club would be overwhelmed with single guys in seconds.

Men are not so different from women.

Sexually, they are. I'm not saying that's bad btw. It's fine but it's just the way it is.

This must have been researched by someone. I don't know enough gay couples to even have a guess at whether it is true or not.

We evolved to be monogamous because of a need to care for the young. Men less so because they invest less in creating the baby but they still found it was worth hanging around to protect their young and ensure they survive.

Homosexuals are not following the evolutionary path in terms of sexual orientation so it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't follow monogamy as much either.

Also, if men are more likely to cheat (which I don't know is true), you have twice the number of men in the relationship so more chance of cheating.

As a broader point, you shouldn't decide a factual point by political arguments. Anti-empiricism is a huge backward step.

If a therapist who deals with these things day in day out has observed it, you are not in a position to cristicise it unless you have done research on it yourself.

If it is true, therapists could explore further why that is the case and that could help them to improve their techniques in dealing with the cases.

It is not something to be offended by. Imagine if medicine was treated like that, there would never be any developments.