...to think that this is sex discrimination?

[SignoraStronza]

I was idly chatting to a coach/friend at DD's rugby club, who mentioned that a local private school is going to be going into her (future) secondary comp to offer additional sports coaching. What's in it for them? Apparently one of the reasons is that they're looking to cream off some of the sporting talent and offer scholarships - fair enough i suppose.

DD overheard this, sounded rather enthusiastic about the idea and so I idly had a look at the sports scholarship application form on the school's website.

Only BOYS could apply for Rugby (and cricket) scholarships, but all could apply for hockey athletics, tennis, golf and swimming.
A bit shit really. DD lives and breathes rugby. She's currently training with both the girls U13s and mini U11 teams up to three times a week, really enjoys it and has found her 'thing'. So to have her bubble burst because of archaic ideas that rugby is for boys made her rather crestfallen.

She absolutely plays a blinder in and against U11 teams consisting of all boys + her, and has come up against some rather crappy opinions from one of the dads already, even though she's a actually rather bloody good.

Would you mention this to the schools involved?

I love the way that private schools can maintain a charitable status and continue to be discriminatory.

I'm fully aware of the RFU regulations about not playing mixed sex rugby from year 7 (U12) onwards and am totally in agreement with that. Just rather annoyed that schools don't offer the opportunity for girls to participate too. All a bit shit really.
If some posters think that girls/women's rugby hasn't 'taken off, don't you think that might be a major reason?

Say that she identifies as a boy.

There are men who identify as women in women only shortlists and jobs so why not.

Could your DD identify as male? Problem solved and frightfully 'now'.

I may be wrong as I know very little about it, but I think boys can play contact rugby from 11 but girls have to be 16. This means that she would only be able to play on a girls team at secondary school. If the school does not have a girls rugby team then she can not do that.

I really hope your DD can continue to play and enjoy rugby. She sounds ace.

Might change in the future but private schools are very traditional and there are girls activities/sports and boys activities/sports

You missed out "some".

Couldn't be further from the experience around here.

Just for some clarity there is no issue with doing mixed skills training at any age in terms of passing drills etc. Any team I've ever played in has done mixed drills training and then single sex contact training.

If they don't do rugby for girls then they aren't going to offer any rugby scholarships.

I'm not sure it's sex discrimination if they offer sport scholarships to both girls and boys in equal numbers.

I know private schools have said they might unify the sports, i.e. phase out the 'girls' sports in favour of 'boys' ones. That means no more netball, lacrosse, etc.

It's hard to say that rugby is 'better' than netball, because clearly a school can't offer six team sports at once, so offering rugby likely means no netball or whatever.

One advantage of 'female' sports is that you do have exclusively female role models, whereas for rugby, cricket, there's an objectively better (in terms of skill levels due to the relative numbers playing) mens' variant of the game.

If they don’t have a girls rugby team, they can’t offer a girl a rugby scholarship. Maybe they tried to establish a team and couldn’t get players. Some girls at our high school kicked up a fuss because we couldn’t pick rugby for PE. They got their way in the end and for one year, three of them threw a rugby ball to each other an hour a week. There wasn’t an appetite for it. It’s not a matter of being sexist, a scholarship is for talented people who will bring a benefit to the school. If she is good at rugby, why not encourage her to take up one of the sports they do offer, get a scholarship, and do rugby in her spare time, or even try to establish a team from within.

Even if it were sexist, what would you do about it? Do you really want to challenge them in court? What would that achieve for your daughter?

"Could your DD identify as male? Problem solved and frightfully 'now'."

For now, but come 15 or 16 she'd be with 6'2" boys lifting weights and taking steroids. Rugby is NOT a sport where males & females should be mixing past puberty.

What would that achieve for your daughter?

A level playing field? Equality of opportunity?

My DD does rugby at her comp but we do live in a very rugby focused city. It's part of their PE rotation every year.

SimonBridges Barefoofdoctor Love it! Anything's possible now although don't think she'd go for that. I've registered my interest with the school and am expecting a call back. Am fully planning on using a gender neutral pronoun to enthuse about my child's sporting talent and see how far it takes us. Could be fun(ny).

do they actually give worthwhile scholarships? I mean more than 10% or something derisory like that?

pisacake totally agree. She's happy enough playing with whopping the boys at the moment, but can't wait for September when she's a fully fledged member of the girls team.

(Assuming you are in England), is it worth writing to England Rugby to see if there are willing / could offer any support?
I know they are currently keen to develop Women’s Rugby.

If not them, are there any other ‘official bodies’ that could offer some support, better than going it alone they might have more clout.

Our local secondary doesn't offer it for girls.

They can do tag/touch rugby until Yr 6 then nothing after that.

They tried it, and ended up with most of the girls with notes etc, they just didn't want to play

I think it's up to 25% and we'd probably need a bursary so it's probably pie in the sky to be honest, although we ought to do that frightfully mumsnet thing of 'making sacrifices, because obviously everyone could afford to educate privately if they only thought of the children.

DS independent school has switched from teaching rounders for girls to teaching cricket, from age 7, for all students. The head is a cricket enthusiast but his approach is gathering mainstream momentum, and I think it's only a matter of time before girl's rugby goes the same way. Most of their sport is equal opportunity but the competitions are s/s, except endurance sports like canoeing where the competition is open with classes organised by age group and sex to level the playing field. So, for example, the Devizes to Westminster race has U18, mixed and s/s groups. one and two person boats and veterans classes, but they all set off in stages and aim to complete the 125 mile course in under 24 hours over four days. There is also the marathon 24 hour course, open only to two person crews, and dominated by the services. Even Olympic gold medallists have been known to fail DW, it is that gruelling.

Don’t they do general sports scholarships? Or is it just specific sport?

Dd had similar, she went to a well known private school for a swimming gala and absolutely loved it- the facilities, the focus on sport, everything. So we looked into it to find she would absolutely qualify for a sport scholarship, except it was a boys only school. She was devastated.

So we looked into the partner girls school, thinking it may have a similar ethic. No sports scholarships, no pool, limited sports facilites. Scholarships were all for the arts subjects.

Right pissed off she was.

PizzaPower We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, but yes, that could be a way of whipping up some enthusiasm.
I'm not very sporty at all and tbh, never thought DD would be either, but one of the local coaches did a bit of tag rugby at her primary school and with a bit of encouragement from bil, I enquired at the local club. She initially started training with the girls, loved it and never looked back.

If the school was discriminating and was forced to change then they would also have to make all 'girl' sports open to the boys. Would they be able to afford so many new teams and how many sports would have to be stopped because they would no longer have enough people to form a team?

The sex discrimination aspect is rather less to do with whether or not girls can play rugby, but more to do with the fact that some of the scholarships are reserved for boys only. All the other scholarships can be applied for by both boys and girls. Therefore boys have an unfair advantage when applying for a scholarship.

If, at the same school, they also offered girls-only scholarships for certain sports, then the situation would be fairer than it is now. A level playing field, you might say.

They don’t provide a female team, and I’m assuming she’s coming to the end of mixed team playing? If there isnt a competitive league for females teenage school rugby within the area, which the school can and does compete in, then offering a scholarship is pointless to them. A girl would be able to train, but not play. The point of the coaching is to find boys to offer scholarships too. I believe she should be allowed to continue playing and be allowed to participate in the extra coaching however, even if it wouldnt be a further option with the school. There is no way That female rugby can become more popular and mainstream if it’s not encouraged now, to encourage more girls to participate

Thankfully the rugby club DD goes to is absolutely brilliant. Totally inclusive - can't fault them.

HOWEVER. I think that this private school, with their seemingly magnanimous offer to go in to the state secondaries to coach rugby, is being totally disingenuous and sexist. If they're only going to help coach the boys, that's pretty crap. If they're going to coach both sexes and then surreptitiously offer scholarships to just the boys, then I think that makes it even worse.

I'm friends with the head of one of the other schools in the academy chain and am seeing them soon so might see what they reckon.

I think it is something that should be looked at in schools though, whether state or private. Most girls don't start playing rugby until university (dh's friend was on his uni womens team 24 years ago) and then find they love it. I've seen how DD's confidence has grown in general and what a lovely and varied bunch of girls she trains with, so starting earlier can only be a good thing.

SignoraStronza

I think that this private school, with their seemingly magnanimous offer to go in to the state secondaries to coach rugby, is being totally disingenuous and sexist. If they're only going to help coach the boys, that's pretty crap.

Why? They are doing the coaching specifically to look for talent for their scholarship programme. It's their money that pays for it. I don't see how they are being discriminatory, just pragmatic. If it was a publicly funded school then I might feel differently.

As other posters have said, the school is offering scholarships to directly benefit themselves. You even admit in your initial post that that is "fair enough".

What benefit would they get from giving a rugby scholarship to a girl if they don't have a girls rugby team or a league to play in? All your daughter could do is train with the boys team and not play any games. Mixed sex rugby once children start to reach puberty is pretty dangerous for girls.

Would you pay if you ran the school and it was your money?