To think the middle class is shrinking?

[crunchymint]

I see jobs that were once solidy middle class such as bank manager, be downgraded with globalisation. The middle class is getting smaller, and there is a bigger divide between those below and above.

The middle class is diverging. The bank manager is lower middle class I.E.C2 band. Upper class (aristocracy) is A. Upper middle classes (wealthy, educated and behave like the aristocracy) is B. Middle middle class (not that wealthy, have some lower class habits) is C1. Lower middle class (newly middle class, viewed by some as practically working class with many working class habits) is C2. Working class (in unskilled work) is D. Underclass (chronically on benefits) is E. I can't remember when the new categorisations were intoroduced but I think they've been around for at least 8 years now.

Just to make that clearer someone working in banking is most likely A or B. The are a high earners. They are university educated and have postgraduate qualifications. Most likely went to a public school. They are aware of the social graces required to succeed in the city. They have the self confidence to pursue a career dependant on their ability to mingle with the elite.

Someone working as a branch manager is C2. They are skilled but not necessarily educated. Most likely went to a state school. They have a basic grasp of good manners and professionalism but are unlikely to know that brown shoes aren't worn in town and the like.

Both work fir a living. But they started in very different places and live very different lives. Ah what fun it is to live in Britain.

are unlikely to know that brown shoes aren't worn in town

Because this is what class is fundamentally all about

My BIL is in banking and is a high earner. He is a graduate but went to an inner city comprehensive. He has nice manners and appears professional etc.

I haven't noticed what colour his shoes are but last time I saw him, I did notice he was wearing a very nice coat.

He was born in the UK but his parents were immigrants who came to the UK to work in factories, drive buses and be nurses and cleaners. And people say there is no social mobility in the UK.

It says a lot about the stupidity and pig-headedness of some of the “elite” that they would rather employ/instruct someone who wears the “right” colour shoes that the brightest and best candidate for the job. It’s why there are still so many fairly dimwitted but well spoken lawyers etc.

Depends on how you define class, if you really have to.
If you think it's related to income, then maybe you're right.
If you think it's related to attitudes and values, etc., particularly when it comes to education, then probably not.
If class was all down to money, the Beckhams would be upper class.

Your class is defined by your parents' occupations though, its very little to do with how well you as an individual do in life.

If you have either parent or a grandparent from The Professions, then you are middle class.

If you are born working class but become, say a top class surgeon, then you are still working class, but your DCs would be born middle class.

Again 430 that’s a sociological interpretation. And fairly meaningless /illogical/idiotic (but reassuring for those who are downwardly mobile I guess)

Your class is defined by your parents' occupations though, its very little to do with how well you as an individual do in life.

None of the classic definitions (socio-economic classification, Marx/Weber's definitions) say this though.

One of the most interesting things about how people define class is that they often construct it in a way that makes downward mobility difficult to achieve.

So it's not about money/occupation/capital but 'breeding', what your parents did, piano lessons, that time you went to the Opera.

It's very eye opening.

Exactly laurie . And it makes upward mobility harder. It suits the elite for people to dupe themselves in this way. “I’ve got a Boden coat and a degree so I must be middle class even though it’s a stretch to pay my rent on a modest house each month”

Definitely. I’m middle class and spent my whole life thinking I was 5:2” only to go for s health check this year and discover I’m 5:1”

The thing is class really doesn’t matter anymore, gone are the times when only middle class kids got the good job through nepotism (does still happen but not like it used to) working class kids who have got to uni have just as many career options open to them now. You can’t tell anyone’s background from the job they do anymore

What would I be?
Born to very lower class parents, adopted at 4 into a working class family (grandfather was manager of a large department store) but very middle class, very involved in the community, got a mbe, very well off through investments etc
I went to local state comp until 15 then went to private boarding school and then uni.

^^

Well I agree with you Brie from observations of myself, friends, family, colleagues etc, but apparently we are delusional and people don't get anywhere unless they come from the right background and have the right connections .

Not to mention the right shoes

Take kate Middleton for example
She is at best middle class, yet she would now be considered very upper class, as upper as you get being part of the royal family and not just part of the family but mother to a future hier as well as wife to one.
Her class hasn’t been a barrier!! Just proves that class really is redundant now and that having commoner or lower working class parents really doesn’t matter anymore

“Marrying the future king” is a fairly niche life plan though brie

Not that I don’t agree with you. “Class” is at best fluid and ambiguous and at worst a series of “signifiers” that mean people think they are doing well because they can tick those boxes (Cath kidston tea towels, a skiing holiday, the right colour shoes) and so they ignore the way the super rich are pulling away and leaving the rest of the country far far behind. We should all be really angry at insane house prices etc but instead people smugly sit around declaring themselves middle class even though their world would crumble if they missed more than a few pay cheques

Only a relatively well off person could say class doesn't matter.

All the research shows that if you have lower socio-economic status, then you are disadvantaged in multiple ways- more likely to live in poorer areas, houses which might be damp, food deserts (where there is little fresh food available in walking distance and you don't own a Range Rover to go and get it), likely to have more adverse life events, rate your health as poorer, suffer more chronic illness and then die younger, by several years.

If you understood class/SES from a Mumsnet you'd think there was 1) underclass but don't call them that 2) very rich plumbers 3) everyone else.

Never is making a good point that I agree with, that class signifiers often make people feel secure, but they are not at all financially. Most people aren't financially secure in the UK judging by the amount of debt (I include myself in my nice middle-class profession in this).

Only a relatively well off person could say class doesn't matter.

Indeed

I live in a deprived area where the high school is rated in the bottom 10% (up from the bottom 2%), there is very high unemployment, high levels of chronic health conditions, lower than average wages (nmw is the default wage offer even for managerial roles), short life expectancy, less than 2% are degree educated etc Basically this area is high benefit reliance and working class area.

However my grandmother used to hold a title and lived a very privileged life in a huge manor house until she married a commoner. She was very much from an upper class family and they employed half the town where she grew up. So am I working class because of where I live and because I work for nmw or middle class because of my ancestry or something else?

No, I've definitely put on weight recently 😎

I’m not a huge believer in the middle class. You either work or your don’t. The difference is the amount of disposable income you have and how you use it. Whilst some professions are seen as more intellectual or professional, ultimately for me you’re working class if not working means you can’t live.