To think the middle class is shrinking?

[crunchymint]

I see jobs that were once solidy middle class such as bank manager, be downgraded with globalisation. The middle class is getting smaller, and there is a bigger divide between those below and above.

I think a lot of middle class jobs have been deskilled in terms of responsibility and independence of decision making. Bank managers are a good example but so are surveyors and to an extent lawyers.

Agree that salary does not equate to class.
I know many poorly paid lawyers and also some very wealthy plumbers and personal trainers.
The ‘middle class ‘ has increased , but white collar professional workers are no longer earning great salaries.
This, to some extent. is due to the increase in the number of people attending university. The job market then becomes more competitive , which leads to a decrease in salaries.

I think 'class' has become a complex mix of background, current life circumstances (education, job/career, income/wealth, interests etc), and the way you identify and define yourself alongside the way the people you associate with define you.

Not convinced by that Telegraph classification, although I can sort of see what it's getting at. I don't think I fit entirely into any of those categories.

Class isn't defined from the salary you earn , the job or profession you do or where 'you' see yourself , class is a mix of back ground , family history , roots - class simply cannot be bought it's your breeding and upbringing

And education.

class simply cannot be bought it's your breeding and upbringing

That is such crap. It isn't breeding.

You can be born into a working class family - but through education, securing a professional job and and self 'improvement' (argue if it really is an improvement) such as taking an interest and gaining knowledge in middle class pursuits such as theater, the times crossword or whatever - you change class.

If it were breeding there would never be any class mobility, I'd be working class because my dad was born in a London slum. However I have a university lecturer for one parent and a doctor for the other, have been privately educated, have a degree and a professional qualifications and work in a very middle class job (corporate finance) with friends who are almost exclusively middle class and perusing very middle class hobbies and interests.

class is actually just your relationship to the means of production (owner or not of capital) but people don't get that and talk sociology instead.

Yup. It's funny how a taxi driver (formally classed as working class) can be better off than a middle class professional (young doctor) these days simply because they bought their house 20 years ago.

My neighbour whose husband was a taxi driver and who worked part time as a dinner lady have a house worth more than £1 million (they bought it for less than £100k many years ago) whereas I have a relative who works as a junior doctor, slogging away who rents in a house share.

Most of the disparity is due to housing and how unaffordable it has become. Makes very little sense to do a middle class job these days as it can't provide a middle class lifestyle. And £50k is considered a high pay when most people would find it very hard to survive on £50k (about £35k after tax) in London!

But isn't that an age thing carrots. If the taxi driver and doctor had bought their houses at the same time and started their careers at the same time, chances are that the doctor would be earning more now.

But housing isn't unaffordable everywhere. £50k would still provide a very good lifestyle, including a naice house in a naice area in many parts of the country, and yes, it is perfectly possible to earn that amount outside London/SE.

Even very high salaries (£100-200k+) are not going to buy a family house in an expensive part of London where such properties are £1M+ unless you have equity or inheritence.

class is actually just your relationship to the means of production (owner or not of capital)
You say that as if there's universal agreement that this is so

So is the middle class shrinking?

If anyone can actually confirm what being middle class is then maybe we could answer that question?

It seems that it is viewed as a mix of education and money. This is where im stuck. What happens if i view myself as working class because im a cleaner with little income that grew up on a council estate but my husband is a well educated well paid senior project manager yet we both have nice cars, own a posh caravan, have plenty of holidays uk and abroad, and live in catchment area for the best schools for our 1 child yet rent privately as cant quite get on housing ladder due to living in the south east. I cant put us in either because we are a bit of both?

class is actually just your relationship to the means of production (owner or not of capital) but people don't get that and talk sociology instead

I think there might be something in this. All this 'middle classes value education, working classes don't' or 'middle classes like Radio 4 and books, working classes like soaps and reality TV' are actually nothing to do with class and are in fact sociology or just plain likes and dislikes that are not class related, especially as people can't agree on what class is anyway.

I spent so much of my teens wanting to be working class!

I come from a slightly hippyish, rural middle type background where we were allowed to decide wether we had private or state education. Lots of freedom as long as we alway took a healthy interest in the arts. My mum came from quite a rigid background with a large house and minimal staff (nannies, gardener and a housekeeper) and quite distant parents and she strived to make our upbringing more warm and loving.

I've married a very working class type man who works in the arts (my parents have always loved him) and we live a typically working class life I believe. Low income, rented house and no expensive holidays.

I have absolutely no idea what class I'd be boxed in to.

actually nothing to do with class and are in fact sociology

Class is hardly a subject unknown to sociology...

Surely it's a 'best fit' kind of thing?
So there may be a number of factors that come in to play

• upbringing
• income
• education level
• job
• attitudes towards education for your children
• hobbies/interests
• where you live
• self view
• some other stuff

And then if someone 'fits' three quarters of the factors that might indicate where others might view them.

I think a lot of the (self identified) middle classes are so fooled by their (self identified) status that they aren’t getting as angry as they ought to about the rapidly increasing wealth divide and the financial precariousness of many professions.
It suits the ruling classes for us to identify as middle class because we have dress in Boden/ take the children to piano lessons etc because it stops us focusing on the obscene financial disparities.
In precariousness most “middle class” people are probably really working class (by a Marxist definition) but we’ll carry on fooling ourselves because we have a degree and shop in Waitrose ....

It's not about money - it's about how you spend your money, time, leisure activities, aspirations, holidays

It must be about money to a point though as you can't afford to go to the theatre/go on exotic holidays etc without it!

This is why the question is impossible to answer as nobody can agree on what defines each class.

I like classical music... but listen to a playlist on Spotify and couldn't name the composers
I am currently reading Wuthering Heights... but also enjoyed reading 50 shades
We own Barbour jackets and go to National Trust properties a lot.... but drink lager straight from the bottle and have Sky TV
We have had holidays in Japan, China and Cambodia to name a few... but I have also been to Benidorm numerous times (When I was much younger!)

By some of these definitions, someone would just need to go and watch a play occasionally and find some classical music they like and they can class themselves as middle class?

It seems the lines are too blurred.

Yes why are so many people obsessed with class?

nevertwerk brilliantly put!

FluffyWuffy100

class simply cannot be bought it's your breeding and upbringing

That is such crap. It isn't breeding.

You can be born into a working class family - but through education, securing a
professional job and and self 'improvement' (argue if it really is an improvement) such as taking an interest and gaining knowledge in middle class pursuits such as theater, the times crossword or whatever - you change class.

Are you American? Have noticed the way you spell theatre.
If you are, you may have different perceptions to people from the UK.

People seem to want it to be about tastes/interests/education however there's no real grounds for that as a basis. Your radio 4 love is neither here nor there.

More concrete bases would either be jobs (as in classic socio-economic classification) or relationship to capital. However, the traditional ABC1C2DE stratification feels very out of date nowadays, with so many traditionally 'middle class' jobs being deskilled or less well paid than they were traditionally (or both).

Relationship to capital is more interesting, but again skewed hugely by inflated property prices. But it's interesting to take that as a starting point. For example, compare a teacher (C1) who can't get on the property ladder with a self employed plumber (C2) who might have several people working for him and be a casual landlord. Despite the traditionally 'working class' job, it's clear that the plumber has the upper hand in marxist class terms.

The other discrepancy that's interesting to me is a highly paid management consultant or similar. These people have nothing to sell but their time, but are able to sell that time extremely expensively. How should they be classified.

The short answer is that none of these stratifications make much sense any more. Time to move on.

And I totally agree with NeverTwerkNaked's post

Banking, certainly, but a bank manager? I'd never consider that a middle class role.