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Original poster

Is it appropriate for a university to give out pro-life leaflets

577 replies

StealthPolarBear · 04/01/2018 15:50

I genuinely don't know. Was a bit disappointed

OP posts:
UpABitLate · 06/01/2018 11:19

Huh?

I'm not trying to "win anyone over" why would I be?

Extreme anti abortionists aren't going to listen to me, are they.

And I don't know why I'm not allowed to point out that the most vehement anti-abortionists - including entire states / societies - are massively influenced by religion.

Saying "oh well poland is RC what do you expect" - what use is that? Women marched there en masse in black recently horrified at the laws that were planned. These are the laws that SPUC would want - the subject of this thread.

Here's some stuff about Poland - I think they were going to be allowed if the woman was going to die actually but that's about it.

here

In Chile they have changed the law recently! I missed this which is odd as I follow a lot of women's rights stuff around the world. It's still not exactly generous but is way better than before where it was banned even if the mother's life was at risk (as per SPUC preferences).

They also used to imprison for abortion including the woman, I don't know if they still do that.

"Abortion in Chile is legal in the following cases: when the mother's life is at risk, when the fetus will not survive the pregnancy, and in the case of rape during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy (14 weeks, if the woman is under 14 years old).[1] Between 1989 and 2017 Chile had one of the most restrictive abortion policies in the world, criminalizing its practice without exception.[2] " WIKI

UpABitLate · 06/01/2018 11:23

The rape clauses always show up what this is really about,

If it's about the baby then why is there an allowance for rape? It's entirely illogical.

The answer is of course that they can then pretend that they care about women and children (girls who are raped) + there is a thing that if it's not her "fault" then she can avoid the "punishment" of having to carry a pregnancy and give birth, but immoral women must not be allowed any "get out clause".

The answer "just shut your legs" is a common one when it comes to abortion. Interestingly many of these people are against contraception as well - they just want women kept in their place ie pregnant and reliant on men.

Honest anti-abortionists say no abortion in cases of rape or incest because what's that got to do with the baby.

BertrandRussell · 06/01/2018 11:28

“Especially women who support the banning of abortion, telling them they hate women is hardly likely to win them over to your side”

I can’t speak for others, but I don’t have a “side”.

Wanting women to have a choice about what happens to their bodies is not having a “side”.

sashh · 06/01/2018 11:33

Wanting women to have a choice about what happens to their bodies is not having a “side”.

It shouldn't be a side, but in reality it is.

Lizzie48 · 06/01/2018 11:49

I'm not justifying what they're doing in the name of religion, obviously, it's disgusting. But you will need to win over some of them in order to win the referendum in Ireland for example. And to get the law changed in Northern Ireland. It's the people in the middle that you need to win over. Or maybe you just want to rant??

UpABitLate · 06/01/2018 11:59

The law won't be changed in NI. Unless you have some info that I don't!

I wrote to my MP recently about it, as it goes.

I don't think this thread on MN is the main resource for Irish people on this issue, is it? Or do you think it's the place of a woman in London to take the lead on this, rather than all the women in Ireland who have been campaigning for yonks?

UpABitLate · 06/01/2018 12:02

Your posts to me just read "lalalallaal shut up shut up can't hear you!!!"

It is a FACT that strict abortion laws cause actual direct harm to very large numbers of women, including death.

I'm not going to stop saying it because it makes people uncomfortable.

And if you think that facts like these will make people think "oh what a bitch saying that about all those women I'm totally going to keep abortion illegal" then you have a weird view of people.

Lizzie48 · 06/01/2018 12:16

Sadly no, fair point. But hopefully it's something that can be changed eventually.

I just hate simplistic generalisations of any sort. I've heard them from the other side all my life, more times than I care to count.

You haven't read my posts very carefully. I agree with you, and I don't want extremist laws either. I'm just countering your black and white demonisation of the other side. Most people actually don't realise what the consequences are for women in South America or Poland, they just see pictures of foetuses in bins.

UpABitLate · 06/01/2018 12:18

Then they need to be told about the death disability and ruined lives that the approach of the likes of SPUC result in.

Lizzie48 · 06/01/2018 12:24

That I agree with. But they won't listen to you if you tell them that their views are misogynistic and they don't care about women. Because it's really not true of them personally. They will say that they're defending the innocent victims, ie the foetuses who deserve to have a life.

I totally agree that it's a disgrace. And it's shameful that it's done in the name of religion. The question is, how we bring about change, isn't it?

BertrandRussell · 06/01/2018 12:40

“The question is, how we bring about change, isn't it?”

What change do you want to bring about?

Notreallyarsed · 06/01/2018 12:55

The question I’d ask anyone who wanted to “protect an innocent life” as a reason not to have abortions, is what happens to that life? Being brought up when financially, emotionally, physically or any other way that meant the woman chose termination as the better option would be hell of a hard for the mother and the child.

We need to get rid of the assumption that women are merrily terminating left right and centre without a second thought. I don’t know anybody who has had a termination and just not given a shit. When a pregnancy test comes up positive there are massive implications, whether you choose to give birth, give up for adoption or terminate. None of them have no consequences for the mother.

Notreallyarsed · 06/01/2018 12:56

I don’t know anybody who has had a termination and just not given a shit

I read that back and realised it might have sounded judgy when it wasn’t supposed to. If anyone has had a termination and not given a shit that’s up to them. No judging here.

Lizzie48 · 06/01/2018 13:07

Obviously, for the women in South America and in Poland (and other places) to be able to have abortions legally. I was shocked to hear that there was an attempt to ban abortions in all circumstances in Poland. And that women are imprisoned for miscarriages in Chile, truly shocking.

Lizzie48 · 06/01/2018 13:14

I absolutely agree, Notreallyarsed, and I do say that to people. I don't like abortion, and wouldn't have one myself (easy to say as I can't get pregnant so won't ever have to face that decision, I admit) but for it to be illegal is totally wrong, as it really IS NOT helping the baby after it's born. And forcing women to go through with giving birth to a baby they can't look after is all wrong too.

I love the DDs we adopted, but it would have been infinitely better for their birth mum not to have given birth to 4 babies that she couldn't keep, plus the 2 other pregnancies that resulted in still birth.

peppapigwouldmakelovelyrashers · 06/01/2018 14:47

I'm just countering your black and white demonisation of the other side. Most people actually don't realise what the consequences are for women in South America or Poland, they just see pictures of foetuses in bins

They don't realise, because they don't care. You don't need any information to understand that an unwanted pregnancy has all kinds of consequences for women, you just need to think for 2 minutes.

UpABitLate · 06/01/2018 14:53

Lizzie I know where you're coming from

The consequences for women of these policies are not hard to find
Which is why I get so angry

Lizzie48 · 06/01/2018 16:37

No, that's the sad part, peppapig. They've been indoctrinated to think that abortion is murder, so obviously the poor woman wouldn't be able to live with herself. They think they're actually protecting the woman from making a terrible mistake. It's a totally different mindset.

Lizzie48 · 06/01/2018 16:43

Some of these women have been protected from the world to such an extent that they see everything in black and white. They see abortion as wrong therefore it must be prohibited. Naturally there will be a loving couple ready to adopt the baby. They don't understand the realities of adoption either.

UpABitLate · 06/01/2018 17:16

Or of the risks of childbirth and pregnancy that is the bit that always angers me most.

UpABitLate · 06/01/2018 17:23

"They've been indoctrinated to think that abortion is murder, so obviously the poor woman wouldn't be able to live with herself. They think they're actually protecting the woman from making a terrible mistake. It's a totally different mindset."

That is really interesting, not something I ever realised before.

Trying to understand why people believe such totally different things to you is so hard. There is a book I read once about understanding the mindset of right-wing people. obviously they aren't all evil, so why do they pursue some of the things that they do? It was really interesting. There was a bit about abortion in that - it was a USA book by a democrat person trying to explain why republican messaging seems to be so much more effective and hard to counteract.

So in this case "abortion is murdering a child" - well that's a very straightforward message and murdering children is obviously very bad.

The messages around nuance, time limits, effect on women, all the stuff is much harder to get across in a snappy way. Also the people who believe this seem to be less likely to be zealous and that also waters it down. I would never stand outside a RC church with pictures of dead women due to botched abortion, and I wouldn't even have to mock them up.

Lizzie48 · 06/01/2018 17:34

Yes, UpABitLate, a black and white message is much easier to get across. Abortion is killing a baby, therefore it's always wrong. They therefore don't really explore it further.

I do understand the anger. I particularly feel it at the RC opposition to contraception in Africa. How is a woman supposed to protect herself from AIDS if she can't insist that her husband wears a condom after he's been visiting prostitutes?? She's not allowed to refuse sex either in their culture. So they go on having babies who can then be infected with AIDS. It absolutely stinks.

That's my own rant.

theymademejoin · 06/01/2018 19:35

@UpABitLate - that's it exactly! It's about saving the woman from herself as you obviously should try and prevent murder if you can at all.

I guess in Ireland, we see more shades of opinion on abortion than you do in Britain. We have a nice Irish solution to an Irish problem as we can export it across the Irish Sea.

The 8th amendment gave equal right to life to the unborn. However, 9 years later, after the X case (a girl was prevented from travelling for an abortion), a new referendum was passed that prevented the 8th being used to prevent a woman travelling. This also allowed access to information regarding services legally available in other jurisdictions.

So, many Irish people think abortion is wrong. However, they disagree with women's freedom being curtailed so while they might disagree with her decision, they don't feel it's right to prevent her making it. But they can't, in all conscience, vote to allow abortion.

Hopefully though, enough people will see that it's time to take care of our own and we will see repeal of the 8th this year.

SD1978 · 06/01/2018 22:40

Yes I do. They have as much right to lobby their beliefs as anyone who is pro choice. It’s nit endorsed by the uni if it’s a pile of flyers on a table. They don’t have anyone regularly checking flyer content. It wasn’t the University stance, but a group within it. Not sure why you’d be disappointed at the uni?

Original poster
StealthPolarBear · 07/01/2018 06:22

If you read my posts, plus others by university staff saying they'd remove them, you'd have your question answered

OP posts: