Is it appropriate for a university to give out pro-life leaflets

[StealthPolarBear]

I genuinely don't know. Was a bit disappointed

Information submitted by the provider showed there had been
373 failed terminations of pregnancy between January to February 2017

surgical termination products does not equate to a baby in a bin.

Well there’s always the chance of a failed termination regardless.

I’ve disagreed with you on many issues Peppa but this is spot on. It’s crucially important that women have access to safe, non judgemental medical advice and have the information to make a decision based on what is best for them. With no horror stories or emotive leaflets, just facts and counselling if that is needed.

100% this, well put.

surgical termination products does not equate to a baby in a bin

My previous post

You're pregnancy will be terminated and the foetus will be put in an unlidded bin the the corner of the room

The 'many people who sit in the middle' aren't going to belong to SPUC and other campaigning anti-abortion groups are they?

SPUC disagree with abortion under any circumstances. Which is why it is pertinent to look at what happens when women are denied abortion around the world. That is what they are aiming for.

I think calling it "ridiculous" to draw attention to the plight of women around the world when they are denied access to safe abortion is really dismissive.

Of course it matters and of course it's relevant. 5 million women a year aren't irrelevant.

Of course we have counties with Draconian abortion laws in Ireland, on continental Europe and of course closer to home. And then look at the state of things in America. The people pushing the agenda are not "moderate".

Ironically the assignment I'm doing covers unsafe abortion.

Spelling awful sorry on phone now

@nooka - The 'many people who sit in the middle' aren't going to belong to SPUC and other campaigning anti-abortion groups are they?

No, they are not. But those in the middle are less likely to vote for repeal if their concerns are dismissed as misogyny.

For me, living in Ireland, the priority is getting the 8th amendment repealed. Right now, for that to happen, the concerns of those who are in the middle need to be addressed in a mature way. Demonising pro-lifers will only push those in the middle further towards an anti-abortion stance.

I don't think you can weigh people against each other like that. Everyone matters, the woman with regrets and the women in danger. You are entitled to view it that way but I am entitled to think the way I do. That is what prochoice is all about isn't it?

No, they are not. But those in the middle are less likely to vote for repeal if their concerns are dismissed as misogyny. This is so true.

One way to decrease the number of unwanted pregnancies and therefore abortions is to increase access to contraception. But the SPUC campaign against this, and believe that contraception and sex education lead to more abortions. So does same-sex marriage apparently.

So basically, people should only ever have sex within marriage with the purpose of creating a child. What a healthy and realistic attitude.

What a healthy and realistic attitude.

😁 SPUC and their ilk are extremists. However, the best way to defeat them is with moderate and tempered argument that uses facts to show them up for what they are.

I absolutely agree that the way to decrease the number of abortions in the world is to improve access to contraception. It's also to reduce poverty, as a lot of women have abortions because they can't afford to have another child.

One statistic that struck me during the US presidential election last year was that the overall number of abortions was lower during the Democrat administrations under Clinton and Obama than under Reagan and Bush. Because they focused on reducing poverty and better access to contraception.

The SPUC is so blinded by dogma that they don't see the need to look at the whole picture.

@twofingerstoEverything occasionally debates do go a bit like that and the questions the students ask really do restore my faith know humanity. There are some sharp thinkers out there.

Not in SPUC, though, who are uniformly bastards.

It's also to reduce poverty, as a lot of women have abortions because they can't afford to have another child. That is true but I think reducing poverty increases the use of contraception as well. Poverty and child mortality mean many women need children to protect their future. Poor women having multiple pregnancies isn't great for their health. I was in a developing country and visiting some people in a small village, a young women with 10 children asked me to take her photo. She was convinced that she would die young in childbirth and she wanted her children to have a photo of her. The person I was with, who spoke the language, spoke to her husband and he agreed to take her to a family planning clinic. She was about 26/27.

termination products aren't babies

Really? So out of interest, up to what gestation does this extend to?

I don't see how a baby is only a baby outside the womb.

Yet after having multiple miscarriages, the hospital would issue a leaflet that first stated "we're sorry you lost your baby" - But proceed to carry out abortions. So is a baby only a baby if it's wanted?

I don't see anything wrong with those leaflets, purely because these people are grown adults who should be able to weigh up their own conclusion.

I don't disagree with abortions by the way, but believe there should be a shorter cut off point for certain unless strictly medically necessary

You'll have to try harder than that Mumof56. Your previous post:

The quality care comission report on Marie stopes found aborted babies in unlidded bins in the corner of the room.

Reducing global rates of forced marriage / early marriage / sexual violence would also assist with reducing unwanted pregnancies / abortion rates whether safe or unsafe.

For some the idea of women being able to control their fertility and then choosing to have less children is bad thing - see the quiverfull movement and similar in the states. There can also be a racial motivator around needing more of a certain type of baby and so the women need to breed.

There have been examples of the state both going down forced birth / forced abortion route and both are horrifying. This is about women and their bodies and their lives.

Women need to be treated with compassion and allowed control over their own bodies. Not forced to do things that they do not want to do, especially when it comes to something as utterly intimate as pregnancy and childbirth.

I did say an emphasis on contraception was important too. I was meaning that the end result was fewer terminations not that individual women should be stopped from choosing to abort.

I don't see how a baby is only a baby outside the womb

Then get a dictionary. It's only a baby once it is born. Before that it is a foetus.

That wasn't aimed at anyone in particular lizzie

I just look around the world and see all this shit being done to women and girls everywhere, and how little much of the world cares, certainly there is lip service but nothing seems to change, it's utterly depressing, and then these more extreme anti-abortion types from what I've seen always have a wider agenda that makes things worse for women and girls across the board.

Even here in the UK, the situation in NI is intolerable, good on Scotland for taking the step to see them on NHS.

The coalition with the DUP is shocking. I am glad that we followed suit but why are women's basic rights and needs so often political bargaining chips rather than a given, and look at how they can be taken away, things are going backwards in many parts of the world as religious zealots take hold.

BashStreetKid

You'll have to try harder than that Mumof56. Your previous post

Why would I have to try harder, what am I supposedly trying for. It's very telling you didn't correct the poster I was replying to about their use of the word. But they're pro abortion, so that's okay for them to use it

Here's the post I was replying to, are you going to take issue with them using the word too? Unlike me they didn't even prefix with the word "aborted"
I can only assume you are ignorant of SPUC. They used to do a lovely line in 'photographs' of bin bags full of babies

Do you also correct women who miss carried their baby "actually it's not a baby" or pregnant women who talk about their "baby"?

outraged over a word if one group of people use it but perfectly ok if another use.

What do you think is being aborted?

And not a peep out of you over the terrible practices in some abortion clinics. That speaks volumes it and of itself.

pro women of just pro abortion?

There is a thread about birth injuries running at the moment, with horrifying stories, these stories are not widely told, the medical profession still seems to take the view that damage due to childbirth is just the way it is. Things are botched, women are fobbed off, expected to put up and shut up. Look at the vaginal mesh scandal.

And this is in the UK where women are supposed to be in a pretty good position. Old ideas about what we are for, the hangover of medicine being run by men for so many years, and a good dose of misogyny go into all this. And then we have the more extreme anti-abortion people who NEVER acknowledge that pregnancy and birth are not a "nothing", that they carry physical and psychological risks. That forced birth is a grotesque thing.

I find it all very upsetting and angering TBH.