Is it appropriate for a university to give out pro-life leaflets

[StealthPolarBear]

I genuinely don't know. Was a bit disappointed

more from el salvador

Fekko I'd argue pro abortion is the opposite if pro life with pro choice the middle ground In an ideal world but it doesn't always feel like that, well not when I went to a well known clinic it was very much pushing for abortion.

WHO page on unsafe abortion loads of women dying globally but who cares they deserve to be punished for what they were trying to do

@UpABitLate - they see it as for the greater good, in the same way as you or I might see a medical treatment that causes suffering (e.g. chemotherapy) given to child as being for the greater good. The child suffers but will hopefully be cured.

There are not "two sides" to this. Well there are, but they are:

Women are treated as full competent adults the same as men with bodily autonomy and access to healthcare including reproductive healthcare including abortion

Or

Women are unimportant baby vessels and it's fine to expose them to injury & death for ideological reasons

The university itself no - but free speech is one of the fundamentals of a university, so even though you/I may not agree, it shouldn't be "not allowed" for some of the students to have a view, in the same way as pro-choice leaflets should also be allowed

but free speech is one of the fundamentals of a university

No it isn't. And free speech has never covered lying to vulnerable people about medical information anyway.

There was a thread I read a couple of weeks ago, a young mum who had got pregnant, I think she already had two children. She decided on abortion and was so upset afterwards that she was suicidal. It isn't always as easy as people make out, not for everyone. I hope she is OK, everyone was reassuring her and telling her she had done the right thing at the time but it didn't seem to be helping.

I can't remember what the thread was called but I do hope she is OK.

Mumof56 thanks for linking to that report. It is pretty damning. Can't see anything about termination targets or unlidded bins in there though, nor your failed abortion numbers

In the summary report:
"Information submitted by the provider showed there had been
373 failed terminations of pregnancy between January to February 2017"

In the Maidstone report:

" Staff expressed concern that they were assessed and
bonuses were paid based on performance against Key
Performance Indicators (KPIs) for patients leaving the
centre with long acting reversible contraception and
“Did not proceed”. Staff felt that this corporate focus on achieving KPIs worked against the concept of patient choice*

Minutes dated 15 July 2015 recorded a company wide focus on ‘Do not proceeds’. Where a patient of less than 5 weeks and three days gestation had decided not to go ahead with the termination they were being called and offered a later appointment

In the Norwich Report

*A colour coded system for segregation of waste was in
place however we were concerned that multiple surgical termination products were left in a single open hazardous waste bin in a sluice room next to theatres for the whole day. This was not removed between cases"

WTF and all the women who actually commit suicide because they are pregnant, what of them?

Two sides my arse.

It isn't always as easy as people make out, not for everyone

nobody ever makes out that it is easy at all. We just have to counter the the rhetoric that any woman who has a termination must feel guilt and depression for ever.

So snidey

Oh I do hope she is OK

All the dead women in south america though, they can go fuck themselves.

Honestly it makes me so angry.

"Every year, worldwide, about 42 million women with unintended pregnancies choose abortion, and nearly half of these procedures, 20 million, are unsafe. Some 68,000 women die of unsafe abortion annually, making it one of the leading causes of maternal mortality (13%). Of the women who survive unsafe abortion, 5 million will suffer long-term health complications.

FIVE MLLION.

Immaterial.

From here

Maybe there are some that do, you get misogynists in all walks of life not just in the anti abortion groups. And yes I agree that it's horrible. I haven't had any dealings with SPUC. It's RC at its roots and you do tend to get more misogyny there because of its theology. (Women still can't become priests remember.)

What I'm saying is that it's simplistic to say that there isn't a theological belief at the route of the dogma. Because a lot of people feel they are absolutely right to believe that the foetus's life she be paramount. Women choose not to abort when the pregnancy isn't viable because of this.

It isn't just men who push these views, my SIL does. She didn't agree with us going through IVF because of the spare embryos, which would then be destroyed. It's dogma. It didn't occur to her that she had no right to say anything, especially as she already had 4 children then whereas I was infertile. (They have 5 now.)

@UpABitLate - whether you like it or not, there are two opposing viewpoints. Demonising the other side does nothing beyond polarise viewpoints. However, recognising their motivations can allow a more nuanced approach to defeating them.

There are many people who sit in the middle. They can accept abortion in certain circumstances but not in others. Dismissing their concerns as misogyny is not helpful.

What I'm saying is that it's simplistic to say that there isn't a theological belief at the route of the dogma

Nobody said there wasn't. But that is only one of many reasons.

I'm really not sure how NO CHOICE is ever preferable to a choice which can be difficult and upsetting.

Maybe the idea is that women shouldn't have a choice because they're not emotionally mature enough to make their own decisions. Progress then.

Anyone who can read those stats and say yeah but,

Is no friend of women.

That's a simple fact.

@UpABitLate - oh, and I 100% agree with you that those figures are an absolute disgrace.

theymademejoin yes there are two opposing viewpoints I outlines them above.

One says that women should be able to choose to have a safe abortion.

The other says she should not, with all the real life consequences that brings.

I am not the extreme one here. People with views like SPUCs directly cause the deaths of thousands of women every year and the permanent injury of 5 million more.

We just have to counter the the rhetoric that any woman who has a termination must feel guilt and depression for ever.

I’ve disagreed with you on many issues Peppa but this is spot on. It’s crucially important that women have access to safe, non judgemental medical advice and have the information to make a decision based on what is best for them. With no horror stories or emotive leaflets, just facts and counselling if that is needed.

All the dead women in south america though, they can go fuck themselves Don't be ridiculous, if a woman is prepared to go through a back street abortion they are desperate, there is no need for a woman here to feel pressured to make a decision. Nothing is 100% so it is inevitable that there will be regrets by some people whether they have or haven't had an abortion but we can't just casually dismiss a woman being that distressed.

I don't think women should be pressured by either side, she is the one who is going to have to live with it, or die because of it, so I think if a woman doesn't want an abortion but needs support she should get support and I think if a woman wants an abortion she should also get support and a top rate service. Reading some of the CQC reports is alarming, clinics where hand washing is an issue, where it isn't clear if clients with learning disabilities are actually giving informed consent, that isn't good enough. No one would think it was acceptable if they were having cardiac surgery and hygiene standards weren't adequate, why should women having abortions accept anything less?

I have supported a teenager who worked for me at one of the clinics in those CQC reports. It was grim and she was scared, the last thing she needed was to get some nasty infection.

Mumof56, surgical termination products aren't babies.

@UpABitLate - I absolutely agree that people with attitudes like SPUC are dangerous. I just disagree with your lumping all pro-lifers into a single category of misogynist.

In Ireland we will hopefully see repeal of the 8th amendment this year. The campaign, which has already started, will be divisive and nasty. However, as someone who is pro-choice, I think we are much more likely to achieve our goal if we take a softer and more nuanced approach than the likes of SPUC and Youth Defence. There are many who would vote for abortion in limited circumstances (e.g. before certain cut-offs etc). It is important that these people are not scared into voting against repeal by demonising them.

nobody ever makes out that it is easy at all. We just have to counter the the rhetoric that any woman who has a termination must feel guilt and depression for ever. Actually people do make out it is easy and I think for some women it is. I don't think any women should feel guilt or depression and hopefully if women are given the support they need they won't or at least very few will. I have had a couple of colleagues who have had terminations without any regrets, I've had another who had regrets but more for the situation that made her feel she couldn't go through with the pregnancy. I just think it was very sad to read how distressed that woman was. I know nothing is ever foolproof but I know the advisor I saw at a well known clinic was pushing me to have an abortion, I had a young baby, she wasn't neutral. People might be better trained 20 years on. I hope so.