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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think this is a racist expression?

145 replies

Mrsknackered · 28/12/2017 11:29

'One cotton picking minute'. My GM uses it A LOT especially when dealing with our DC (who are mixed race, although this is irrelevant)
DP has already pulled her up on the amount of gollys displayed around the house (in paintings, cards, china ornomants) he explained the history of them too her, she seemed to understand, then the next time she had put them back up!
I told her I think the expression has racist/slavery roots and showed her the google result for the phrase (which the top post describes it as an awful racist phrase) she seemed upset and said that it definitely isn't, and she's sure it is said in an episode of Vicar of Dibley (Hmm)
Whilst I was packing the car to leave this morning, I heard her use it twice! I spoke to my mum who said that 'I shouldn't be too upset, as she honestly isn't doing it with bad intentions' but it's really grating on me.
AIBU? Everyone seems to think I'm being over the top! It is racist isn't it?!

OP posts:
TidyDancer · 28/12/2017 13:05

This is definitely said in the vicar of dibley. I can't remember the exact episode but I can remember it being said.

Nikephorus · 28/12/2017 13:05

I appreciate they might have sentimental value, but maybe she could put them away when you visit? Or confine them to non-public areas
But why should she in her own house?! If OP or anyone else doesn't like seeing them then they're within their rights to not go round but you can't tell someone what they can and can't have in the privacy of their own home. And given her background then I'm not surprised she's got a strong attachment to them - that is very normal.
As for cotton-picking, I always assumed that it was an expression used when you wanted to be a bit picky over something and hence the cotton-picking reflected the attention needed to pluck a bit of cotton from something (like threading a needle, you have to focus).

Thymeout · 28/12/2017 13:05

Op - look at Rebecca's link. It refers to the job, not slavery. Cotton-picking is hard labour, so every minute seems like longer. Nothing to do with whether you were black or white, freemen or slaves.

hackmum · 28/12/2017 13:06

My late MIL often used to say "now just wait a cotton picking minute". She would have been in her 90s now. I had never thought about where she heard the phrase, but I guess it makes sense that she might have picked it up from children's tv in the 60s.

I really struggle to see how it's offensive. Is it saying anything derogatory about black people?

(Just for clarity - yes, golliwogs are offensive.)

DullAndOld · 28/12/2017 13:08

ofc 'half caste' is offensive but the only person I have heard using it in the last 20 years was a half Indian half English woman I knew, in reference to herself. It had to be explained to her why it was offensive. By a white person...

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 28/12/2017 13:10

Intention isn't the main point here, imo. I wouldn't put up with persistent 'accidental' or 'generational' or whatever racism in the presence of my children. Thankfully, my own white grandparents - both pushing 90 - don't go in for any of this shit. I think we do people a real disservice when we suggest it's to be expected from people of a certain age.

Nikephorus · 28/12/2017 13:10

And yes, as an adult I hear the backstory and I can see why she'd have formed that attachment, but I wouldn't expect any child to appreciate it
Wouldn't it actually be better though to explain to your kids why gollies are now seen as offensive but also explain why GM is so keen on them (teaching them to actually think about why people act the way they do rather than making blanket assumptions) and how views change over time. Give them more, different examples that are unrelated to race - women being allowed to vote, that sort of thing. They'll end up more rounded from it and more likely to accept that everyone is different and that you shouldn't judge without getting the full picture. That's got to be better...

froshiechipandbrickie · 28/12/2017 13:13

Wouldn't it actually be better though to explain to your kids why gollies are now seen as offensive but also explain why GM is so keen on them (teaching them to actually think about why people act the way they do rather than making blanket assumptions) and how views change over time. Give them more, different examples that are unrelated to race - women being allowed to vote, that sort of thing. They'll end up more rounded from it and more likely to accept that everyone is different and that you shouldn't judge without getting the full picture. That's got to be better...

That’s what my parents did when I was little. It did benefit me tremendously (imo). I do think that many of us have the (very understandable) urge to just forget about these things / sanitise our world...

DullAndOld · 28/12/2017 13:16

All this stuff about the 'older generation' of white people being unthinkingly racist is such nonsense.
My parents are/would be in their 80s and would never act like this. If they were told something was offensive they would STFU.

VladmirsPoutine · 28/12/2017 13:16

What does the phrase actually mean? If someone asks you a question and you reply with 'one cotton picking minute' what are you supposed to be implying?

FWIW Gollywogs are racist as hell but for some odd reason MN seems to think them quite a nice 'toy'. I gave up that battle a long time ago.

missyB1 · 28/12/2017 13:17

Still have my Golly badges from the jam jars, evil racist me! The cotton picking thing is an expression from long ago that she will use as a habit like some people saying fuck in every sentence.
Just explain to the kids why you dont like Gollies or the cotton picking expression but that doesn't mean Grandma is a bad person, just that she's from a different time and doesn't understand.

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 28/12/2017 13:21

Wouldn't it actually be better though...

Depends how old, tbh (sorry, too lazy to scroll up and see if OP mentions her children's ages). In the fullness of time? Yes, of course better to have the whole story and put everything in its context. When they're still small? My preference is to protect them from some of that crap while I can, build up a powerful positive view of blackness before introducing the racism angle. I made sure my son knew about ancient African kings before he knew about slavery. I spoke to him about women not being able to vote or inherit etc, and about the history of homophobia, before I talked to him about racism. It's the balance between needing to get in there first before the rest of the world does, vs not wanting to introduce a black child to something so personal and so painful any earlier than necessary. Very tricky.

I might feel differently if my children were white. I think a golliwog in particular is a really potent image - it's not just the history of the thing, it's actually objectively what it looks like. My son is now 5, I don't think he's seen one yet. I don't know whether/how he'll recognise his own African features, exaggerated and lampooned like that. I think that's a potentially really horrible experience for a perceptive child, and I'd be hurt if someone in our family didn't appreciate that.

Original poster
Mrsknackered · 28/12/2017 13:41

DC are 5 next month and 1 year. 5 year old has said it before, so we've spoken about not repeating it as it upsets some people. I am very happy to do open and honest explanations when they are older, but it will of course go over their heads at this point!

OP posts:
Confusedbeetle · 28/12/2017 14:00

Now here's a thing, thinking about generational attitudes to language. I personally take deep offence to the use of the word "fucking" dropped in casually for something that is annoying. Origins, are we talking about loving sex? I don't think so. Are we talking about sexual abuse? It's not always the older generation who use words inappropriately. Language is littered with rubbish and we are all offended by different things, Children less so.

coconuttella · 28/12/2017 14:15

I don’t see why a phrase that has its origins in slavery is necessarily racist. It depends on whether the phrase is meant or perceived by the phrase’s subject to be demeaning or mocking. For instance, “selling someone down the river” has its origins in the space trade, but its use doesn’t appear in any way mocking or demeaning towards slaves (and by implication black people).

coconuttella · 28/12/2017 14:17

Slave trade

DullAndOld · 28/12/2017 14:42

anyway there have been plenty of white slaves over history.
In fact my white childrens great grandparents were slaves.

MrsMaxwell · 28/12/2017 15:16

Half cast is offensive - esp as my son is not half Indian.

Thymeout · 28/12/2017 15:56

coconutella Yes. I agree. I was thinking that just now. In fact, I believe 'cotton-picking' pre-dated slavery, when the pickers were all white. It's a Southern thing, like grits and chittlings and watermelon. Just because it's Southern doesn't make it racist. If anything, it's classist. Like associating Lancastrians with flat caps and whippets and clogs.

I had enough of this sort of thing in the 80s when I had to keep explaining to school children that the word 'black' wasn't, in itself, racist.

God knows there's enough racism and prejudice and inequality in the world without nit-picking through the language and unearthing ancient derivations that have long lost their significance. Especially when you get it wrong. Focus on injustice not semantics.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/12/2017 16:09

It probably is there, but people were picking cotton in England long before slaves did in America

They most certainly were not picking cotton in England. Cotton was imported into Europe as made up material, not grown.

How old is she? If she's mid 50's to mid 60's it was likely on kids telly when she was young and picked up from there

So my age. I'm always puzzled by all the "older people" referred to on MN who apparently have no idea how awful gollies are.

VladmirsPoutine · 28/12/2017 16:19

In fact, I believe 'cotton-picking' pre-dated slavery, when the pickers were all white.

Yes. Sure.

scrabbler3 · 28/12/2017 16:20

I would explain to the children why golliwogs are objectively unpleasant, but I would also explain why your gm is so attached to hers. I definitely think that she should put them away, but given that she clearly won't, and you want to continue to visit, an explanation is required.

"Cotton picking minute" refers to tedium and I'm pretty sure it isn't racist, but this thread is challenging that opinion.....

ARudeAwakening · 28/12/2017 16:21

Never heard of it being racist, I have heard it in the vicar or dibley too.
Your being WAAAAAAAY too sensitive, goodness knows how you'll react when people say actual racist words to you.

oliveinacampervan · 28/12/2017 16:24

3 things bother me........

There are too many people offended on behalf of others (others who are usually not offended and are quite capable of defending themselves if they ARE offended.)

There is too much pearl clutching and faux outrage at people who think differently to you. 'I was viewing a house a saw a golly toy and I DID JUDGE!' PMSL won't someone think of the CHILDREN?! Shock

And there is too much political correctness and people ranting about shit that is 'offensive' because they think it makes them look like a good person/right-on/leftie blah blah fucking blah.

FFS, get over yerselves. Hmm If an old lady has a golly toy or says 'cotton-picking minute' or 'half-caste' (purely and old fashioned term,) so WHAT? Find some serious shit to pearl clutch about, like people dying in wars, people starving in third world countries, the multiple 1000's of homeless people in the UK, and the fact that people who WORK have to go to fucking food banks.

Frankly the PC brigade, and the pearl clutchers make me sick.

And yeah, knock yourselves out with the 'you sound angry' bollocks that I know someone will post soon. I don't care, because I AM angry! This shit really fucks me off. Hmm