Grenfell-ex-residents-should-get-a-3-bed-house-with-a-garden-if-thats-what-they-want? - thread 2

[cathf]

Don't know how to do links
But this is to continue discussing the Grenfall-ex-residents-should-get-a-3-bed-house-with-a-garden-if-thats-what-they-want? thread

Chakra I will elaborate will you answer my posts??

I have answered yours

Thanks so much to everyone who's tried to calm this discussion down and return it to a more civilized footing.

There's definitely a need for a compassionate discussion about this but we'll have to consider removing this thread if it continues in the same vein.

Let's remember the tragedy that is at the heart of all this.

KitKat said: "Money Chakra , it’s what most things are about,
Money is missing, money that was supposed to be spent on the Tower & wasn’t then people died

This is the longest contribution you have made to this thread, but you decline to expand on your theory. Instead of calling everyone you disagree with 'horrid' and 'racist' you can't be bothered to expand on your take on the fire. You just pursue people. This forum is not about what you like or dislike; debate is about talking with everyone, even those whose opinions you dislike. Anything else is a teenage attitude.

I will not be responding to you again

Agreed Gardengeek. I think the disaster was hijacked right at the beginninng with groups pushing their own agenda, and unfortunately it has stuck.
The claims do not stand up to any scrutiny and I believe most of the have petered out now.
The one belief that is persisting is that everyone involved in Grenfell has been elevated to a special status where nothing can be questioned, no matter how questionable.
I find some pp's support of them a little patronising, to be honest.

Same with the planning and building control sign off; these were probably signed off by people not far from the start of their career

In negligence expectation of competence is not generally graduated when a set professional standard exist - Imperitia culpae annumeratur

Fire safety is certainly something an engineer or an inspector would consider.

If you'd actually read any real law, make, rather than being a wiki warrior, you'd know that the use of Latin is strongly discouraged nowadays!

Rebecca, will you calm down?
This thread will end up being closed if you don't stop attacking people.

I am perfectly calm. I just hugely disagree with people looking up the law on google and citing it with no understanding of how to apply it in practice - especially on something as serious as this. i would feel the same on a medical thread, for example.

There will be the investigation and then actual lawyers will assess liability and quite possibly culpability, as it should be. Googling "Tort" is just daft!

Well, it is true, I am not a qualified solicitor. And nothing is carved in stone.

But it would be a strange and chaotic world we live in if everyone could hide behind, "Oh, it's not our fault, we put the intern on flight safety inspection that week."

On the subject of the enquiries, please does anyone know when the final, definitive reports are actually expected?

I've googled it of course, but there's just so much about Grenfell online that it's hard to pick out relevant bits

Puzzled, I don't know, but I do know that the whole thing is going to kick off again when the findings are published, unless the conclusion is it was all a conspiracy to get rid of HA tenants in K&C.
I really don't know about the whole Grenfell thing, to be honest. I do wonder why my opinions seem to go against the tide and I am questioning if I really do lack compassion, as I do in general think people should be as self-sufficient as possible. It does annoy me when people like some on here seem to nearly encourage a reliance on others as it seems to make them feel more virtuous to defend the victims rather than encourage self-reliance.
For instance, insurance. Obviously the council would be responsible for insuring the building, but is it really too much to expect tenants to insure their own belongings? It can be done from about £7 a month, according to MSE expert Martin Lewis.
Yes when this is mentioned, it seems to get regarded as an outlandish idea, and outrageous that 'vulnerable' people should be expected to do this. In actual fact, by doing it, they would be less 'vulnerable'.
I don't know. I'm not expressing myself very well. It just seems that compassion isn't always a positive thing.

Actually you're expressing yourself perfectly, Cath; Mumsnet isn't the whole world, and out here in the real one I find that more folk would agree with you than not

I'd hope most of us would gladly help those who genuinely can't help themselves, but there's a difference between can't and won't ... and IME those who won't tend not to advertise the fact, preferring instead to paint themselves as victims

I don't know when the findings are due, but I suspect they might well take longer than initial estimates. It's hugely horribly complicated :(

I think my opinions may have been formed in my days as a local reporter, when I would be regularly contacted by council tenants (as they were at the time) moaning and griping about trivial things that could have been fixed with a screwdriver and 10 mins work.
Instead of putting a board on a broken glass door, one woman was sitting in the freezing cold and draught and complaining about how long the council took to fix the door. The glass was broken when her husband put his arm through it when drunk.
I remember even as an 18-year-old junior, thinking how mad it was that some people seemed to be quite happy to passively sit and wait for someone else to help them, when it would be quicker to just do it themselves.
Quite often, there would be a ringleader encouraging the complaint, and I am afraid to say that, in the immediate aftermath of Grenfell, when all the talk was about the residents group and how they had warned something would happen, I thought back to my cub reporter days.
Tenants groups are always warning something will happen, it's what they do.
The council or landlord or HA is always the enemy
The tenant is always the oppressed victim. The council/landlord/HA is always looking for ways to get at tenants and make their lives more difficult.
It was ever thus and I'm not sure what the answer is. But I instinctively think encouraging self-reliance is better than misplaced compassion encouraging continued dependence.

I heard on the TV that the findings will be available in August.

The Grenfellers' demand for a Diversity Panel has been rejected by Mrs May, but why on earth request it in the first place? How could it adjust written evidence and testimony? That's actually a dreadful smear against not only Moore-Bick but English Law.

news.sky.com/story/grenfell-inquiry-risks-being-whitewash-without-diverse-panel-say-families-11151098

"A petition is calling for people from varied backgrounds to sit alongside Sir Martin Moore-Bick, who is heading the inquiry. The campaign has been backed by families of around 50 victims, along with Grenfell United, an association of survivors from Grenfell Tower and nearby Grenfell Walk."

cath as I have stated in a previous post, my parents were council tenants. I cannot remember a time the council were ever called to fix anything. We had central heating installed and new windows (which were being installed in all the council properties where I lived) but fixing a tap/door/plug socket etc, my Mum dealt with it.

I wholeheartedly agree that some council tenants have a sense of entitlement, which again I have expressed in a previous post.

My feelings are also the same for children. You want children, YOU pay for them NOT the state. I had to, and it never once crossed my mind that anyone else would!

I agree, cathf. Even learned helplessness does not explain it - because afterall that woman could have found a piece of cardboard or a newspaper and jammed out the draught. Maybe it's to do with extracting as much as you can from The Man, even to your own detriment, i.e. I'm not doing that, that's council's job type of attitude.

The tenant is always the oppressed victim. The council/landlord/HA

Once again you're correct - and it's not just LA landlords, as we see on here constantly with private landlords also written off as the devil incarnate. The idea that they can be a mixture of good, bad and indifferent - just as tenants are - seems not to occur to those who'd damn them all in pursuit of some agenda

I also get where you're coming from about compassion, but would suggest that, actually, it is always a good thing if it's the thinking variety. In these days where "discrimination" has moved away from what it once meant and has become a dirty word, it's not always appreciated that instant reactions of "it's awful, they should do something" isn't necessarily helpful to anyone

The Grenfellers' demand for a Diversity Panel has been rejected by Mrs May

Yes, I saw that; no doubt there'll be general screaming and stamping and the flinging of accusations, but it seems to me the right thing to do

As I said upthread (or was it the other one? ) I'd very much hope that residents will be given a proper role in submitting relevant evidence to the enquiry, but it's not immediately clear how their backgrounds can inform concrete matters such as who did what, ordered what ... or even tried to hide what

I think the disaster was hijacked right at the beginning with groups pushing their own agenda, and unfortunately it has stuck

Yes, right at the beginning there were volatile protests accusing council of class war and calling for the fall of the Tory govt. These fotos are from July. It sounds like party politics, and they are already shouting out the conclusion as if it's true, which will queer the pitch for people following the Grenfell story.

The title of this thread looks like a Wright Stuff topic.

The more I think about the call for a Diversity Panel, the more I realise that the Grenfell action group want to make this about something else. What could a representative for any ethnicity actually contribute ...... just thinking personally; what could someone representing my parents' ethnicity, for example, bring to the table? No, cant see it. Interpreters may be useful but not a panel running parallel to Moore-Bick's role.