To think Father Christmas is yet another bloody sexist concept

[chocdog]

Just been spending loads of time and effort on the school Christmas fair. Every single person involved since September doing all the hard work and very complex organisation has been female. Then on the day, two dads rock up to do the fun stuff - being Father Christmas. They are the stars of the show getting the glory and enjoying jolly bantz with the kids and massive thanks from the adults.

Why do we go along with this?

All the religions work like this too (as shown by the thread on religions that's running at the moment). We can't change the religions but couldn't we have a Mother Christmas alternative to Father Christmas? Not as his bloody helpmate but as a proper standalone alternative. AIBU?

underslung
Is that biscuit still on offer? I can offer you a glass of wine now.

Of course OP is right.

All those posters stating 'but St Nicholas' was a bloke obviously think that traditions just come to us as direct fact, that there's no cultural influence which directs the selection process or shapes the narrative

St Nicholas was a man, yes, but he's not literally Father Christmas. Our culture selected an appropriate male figure and embellished the hell out of him and ended up with Father Christmas. A woman just would not have fitted the narrative.

Celebrated female figures (eg Mary) tend to be passive. Mary is celebrated, yes, but she's essentially vessel, not an active agent.

I'm actually shocked at the high proportion of "It's PC gorn mad" type reactions on here. It's just obvious that Father Christmas is a product of a patriarchal system. He's called Father Christmas FFS!! And yes, this is the same patriarchal system that generally allows women to do the drudgery and let the men take the credit. Again, it's obvious, and people saying "I get loads of credit at Christmas" don't disprove that... Why are you getting some credit? That's right, because you did all the work, and for once, people are paying a bit of attention. Jeez. This thread seems like a throwback to pre-feminist times...

Getting men involved in your school fair would be the thing, not bitching about Santa. Or get a Mrs Claus too if it bothers you.

Joan of Arc? She is a Saint in the Roman Catholic church, she wasn't passive but maybe being a martyr disqualifies her from "hero" status.

Women don't do all the work in every family, hence some of us don't see the issue because our families definitely aren't in pre-feminist times. It doesn't mean we aren't sympathetic if some people are still living a pre feminist life it just means it doesn't apply to us.

It depends on the area you live in, but there are plenty of dads who work from home, flexible time or shift work who might step in. In my experience PTA dominated by women do get a bit intimidating for men just like all male environments can be. If you appeal directly to all parents, something we tried this year, emphasising different skills that might be needed then you might attract more dads. I do get the point about Santa but you could have a Santa couple (albeit a heteronormative one) AND more dads doing the work then voila, back to 21st century Christmas

I think Joan of Arc is possibly a good exception grannytomine but she's just that - an exception!

It's not hard to see that the overwhelming majority of folklore heroes are male.

Of course there are families where the men do more of the drudgery. But, again, it would be difficult to argue against the fact that, in the overwhelming majority if cases, the women are doing the donkey work. Your individual situation doesn't change that.

Personally, I think that there are many more useful ways of challenging sexist culture than trying to unseat Father Christmas- he's here to stay, and kids love him! But I don't think there's any mileage in pretending he's not a product of a patriarchal system. It's not just a coincidence that he, along with 99% of folklore good guys, is male! So I agree with OP.

It wouldn’t feel sexist if all the men got involved in the helping. Isn’t that the real issue?

(Rudolph is male, everyone used to laugh and call him names. Poor thing.)

This thread is hilarious

Maybe overthinking the Santa at the fair part but YABVU having teenage girls as his ‘glamorous assistants’ if you are worried about detrimental sexist messages you can’t get much worse than that.

Why didn’t you have a girl and a boy?

Jeez. This thread seems like a throwback to pre-feminist times...

No this thread is OTT.

For what it's worth schools that I have taught in when my DC schools pat has roughly the same split of males and females on the PTA.

It wouldn't feel sexist if all the men got involved in helping

Exactly. The fact is that (despite all the anecdotal evidence we'll now hear), the overwhelming majority of school-related stuff (PTA fairs, school runs, packed lunches etc) is done by mums.

If that weren't the case, it wouldn't be a problem that Father Christmas is a reminder of our heavily sexist past - we wouldn't care really, as all that sexist bullshit would be history.

Instead, we have a poignant reminder that it's not all history, as the only bit the men are doing (in extreme cases - I'm sure it's not like this in most schools) is prancing around in a Santa costume being the hero...

I have some sympathy with the OP though I think trying to 'feminise' Father Christmas is a losing battle. Lots of fathers help out at our school fair but I would say it is still two thirds mums to one third dads, or maybe even three quarters/a quarter. And I would bet that it's women who decorate Santa's Grotto.

I completely agree with Golden Bowl that saying 'but St Nicholas was male' is missing the point. The Father Christmas/Santa Claus myth today has very little to do with the real St Nicholas. He didn't dress in red and white, live at the North Pole and have flying reindeers. And clearly in a patriarchal society you weren't going to have women flying around the world on sleighs.

And Joan of Arc is a heroine, but she doesn't magically bring kids presents and appear at every primary school fair in the country.

@TheGoldenBowl

That's because the men tend to be at work earning money and supporting their families financially. They aren't able to not turn up to work and hand tinsel or glue cotton wool to the MDF postbox.

In my experience, when men don't have work commitments (older or wealthier) are often are involved in the behind-the-scenes jobs.

Of course there are families where the men do more of the drudgery. But, again, it would be difficult to argue against the fact that, in the overwhelming majority if cases, the women are doing the donkey work. Your individual situation doesn't change that. I don't think it is just me, I think there are others on here who have partners who do their share. I don't know if it is an overwhelming majority, I think back when my kids were little in the 70s the balance was different, I think and hope that it has changed and is continuing to change. It is certainly what I see with my children and their friends.

I was thinking about the men getting praise for doing things and I think sometimes it is because the people praising have certain expectations. An example I thought of was recently I was visiting a sick friend, she is a widow and I went to see how she was, if she needed anything. Another visitor was there at the time. Her flourescent light in the kitchen wasn't working and she was going to get an electrician out to fix it. I said I'd do it. Off I went to local DIY place, bought a tube and a starter in case that needed changing. went back, no step ladder so mid 60s me climbs up on a stool, changes tube and starter. The two women who I would describe as well educated capable women reacted as if I had invented electric lighting. I really feel they would have thanked a man but not been quite so overwhelmed.

Doesn't explain the Father Christmas thing but I think it could explain some of the fuss but either way I think people have an issue with their partners not Father Christmas.

Glad you like Joan of Arc, but there are plenty of female heroes if you think about it. Elizabeth 1, Boudicca, Cleopatra, Catherine the Great, Florence Nightingale, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Marie Curie, The Pankhursts, Rosa Parks, Anne Frank, Mary Seacole, Violet Szabo, Amelia Earhart and I could go on. We need to teach out daughters about these women but even more important we need to teach our sons, or in my case grandsons.

I just had a worrying thought, when my older children were at primary school in the 70s dads did as much on PTA as mums. When my younger ones were at primary in the 90s it was much the same. At my GCs primary it is mainly women, and one of the scarce men is a grandfather. Maybe we are going backwards?

secretbadsanta

That's because the dads tend to be at work earning money and supporting their families financially

Well, quite That's also a symptom of a patriarchal system.

grannytomine I don't quite see the point of your list of inspiring women... Of course there have been high-profile women. Are you suggesting that there have been a roughly even number of male and female high-fliers through the years?! Even though most of the women were busy being owned by their husbands, being denied financial and political freedom and giving birth every other year (or possibly dying in childbirth?). I mean, you even had Mrs Pankhurst on your list!

The reason I said that this thread seemed a bit pre-feminist is because it contains several posters who don't seem to accept that we have lived through centuries of sexism!! I feel like we're starting from Feminism Lesson One: "men have dominated history and therefore male characters dominate in all spheres." Any amount of listing inspirational women won't change that.

@TheGoldenBowl

You clearly have an agenda to push. There's nothing stopping women being the higher earners but they choose to have children and the time off work puts them at a disadvantage.

HTH

Haha!! Brilliant secret . Seriously, where are all the posters who understand the different social and economic pressures on men and women??

Haha!! Brilliant secret . Seriously, where are all the posters who understand the different social and economic pressures on men and women??

(Apologies for double post)

My DD earns more than her partner, my DIL earns more than my son. My cousin's son gave up work to be a SAHD as his wife earns more than him. We are in the 21st century.

TheGoldenBowl, I think those inspirational women don't need to be justified to you. Many women have lived their own lives, my Great grandmother born in the middle of the 19th century threw a drunken husband out and brought up her children singlehanded, she left school at 12 and had no privilege in life. My grandmother returned to work against her husband's wishes and the social norm where she lived as she wasn't prepared to ask for anything she needed or wanted.

We can sit and moan or we can get on and live our lives. You can make your choice and I will make mine.

Ok granny - but I'm not arguing about specific people, be they your grandmother, children or even me. I'm looking at the bigger picture. It's fine for you or I to have sorted out our own individual relationships and careers... but that doesn't erase society-wide prejudices and trends, does it

You seem to be suggesting that there has been no imbalance, and the only thing holding back women is women's own inadequacies! As I said, this is pretty basic stuff.

Its always been father Christmas.
Why do some people love finding things to piss and moan about.
Looking at you, op