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Grenfell ex-residents should get a 3-bed house with a garden if that's what they want

999 replies

pingodolcepo · 11/12/2017 08:23

Daily mail outrage that some of the residents are asking for a 3-bed house with a garden. But honestly, they have been through a living hell that was caused by someone else's very bad choices.

There are plenty of people in London that have a 3 bed council house, why can't these people that have dealt with horrors get one also?

I know someone that got a council house in Highgate in the 80s, was a cabbie with a good wage, bought it when offered and sold it a few years ago for over a million and now lives in a fab place with loads of land and a pool in the south of France. If plenty of normal people got houses why can't these poor residents get one? They won't ever be able to afford to buy it due to the high cost of london houses now.

OP posts:
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Puzzledandpissedoff · 18/12/2017 14:51

Should this really be about suspending judgement and giving people "what they deserve" though, or is it better to expect empathy but nevertheless stick with what they're entitled to?

And how could anyone begin to quantify "what they deserve" anyway? No doubt the folk who made claims when they'd never even lived in Grenfell felt they "deserved" a home too, and while I don't pretend to know their individual circumstances, what about those who've refused what looks like perfectly good housing?

Bringing emotions into this is understandable, but it does run the risk of fuelling entitlement and the expectation of blank cheques

cathf · 18/12/2017 15:03

Bringing emotion into hard decisions is never a good idea.
You only have to look at this thread to see that - lots of noise about empathy, compassion and caring, but little idea of how to implement a new house for everyone, apart from Something Should Be Done rhetoric.
I find it baffling that some people seem to think that someone who has only been in the UK a few months and is living in a central London flat should take priority over a London family facing a crisis, but - if this thread is to be believed - there are some who think like that.
And when you drill down into how that is fair, the answer is inevitably 'The Government/c ouncil should build more homes'.
Cloud cuckoo land.

cathf · 18/12/2017 15:04

Should say living in a central London flat illegally should take priority over a London family facing a crisis, but - if this thread is to be believed - there are some who think like that.

woodhill · 18/12/2017 15:12

I think there is a correlation between our limmigration policies of the past 30 years' and the housing crisis anyway but this is never mentioned on the news

Whitney168 · 18/12/2017 15:20

Taking the tragic human elements out of this, it is going to be 'interesting' (sorry, cold choice of word) to see who comes out as at fault in this.

it was the local council that went for the cheapest option with poor materials
That's not true. They chose materials above basic specs that all met building regs.

It is inescapably true, surely, that no Council procurement will have permitted the choice of any materials that weren't considered to have been fit for purpose and didn't meet all safety regulations?

If the supplier also truly met all safety regulations, it's hard to see how they're 'at fault' too - sure there will be changes to regulations that follow, but obviously too late for Grenfell. Let's hope it's not too late for anyone else.

Difficult to see entirely where fault is going to lie here, and what regulation changes will come from it. None of that helps the victims, obviously, but is going to muddy the waters and make a tragedy even worse to financially rectify, I'm sure.

As far as the human element goes, we'd all like to be able to wave a magic wand and house all victims in their dream houses in the local area, but that would indeed be magic and is completely implausible. Something will have to give somewhere, and unfortunately for any sub-letting families, it is hard to see how the Council can be seen to have any obligation to re-house them, nice though it would be.

So many knock-on effects that will (must!) come from this awful tragedy.

makeourfuture · 18/12/2017 15:53

wave a magic wand

There is nothing particularly "magic" about building homes. The engineering and architecture have been established for a long time. We were building half a million homes a year after the war - many of them social.

Magic has no place in construction.

Whitney168 · 18/12/2017 15:54

Well, true, but to house them in the borough someone would certainly have to magic some space to build said houses ...

makeourfuture · 18/12/2017 15:56

"in 2014 the national body for building control departments, Local Authority Building Control (LABC), issued a certificate for the Celotex insulation installed at Grenfell that stated it could be used on tall buildings – but only with fibre cement panels that do not burn."

"Grenfell was fitted with cheaper combustible polyethylene-filled aluminium panels."

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/14/grenfell-tower-cladding-passed-by-council-officers-in-2015

Battleax · 18/12/2017 15:56

Well, true, but to house them in the borough someone would certainly have to magic some space to build said houses ...

This.

It's going to have to be either magic or compulsory purchase to meet all the in-borough demands.

cathf · 18/12/2017 15:59

Where are these houses going to be built, Makeourfuture?
They have to be in K&C because that's where the Grenfell families want to be. They have to be houses because the families don't want flats.
Any ideas?

makeourfuture · 18/12/2017 16:03

They have to be in K&C because that's where the Grenfell families want to be. They have to be houses because the families don't want flats.

It is my understanding, from reading the popular press, that some are not averse to flats, and that some are willing to relocate.

Again, I think part of the issue is that some are calling for them to be shipped way off somewhere. Mental health professionals are saying that may be detrimental.

Battleax · 18/12/2017 16:10

Again, I think part of the issue is that some are calling for them to be shipped way off somewhere.

Who is calling for them to be "shipped" where exactly!

Mental health professionals are saying that may be detrimental.

A lot of the life experiences of the poor are psychologically detrimental. The particular difficulty is that this disaster has happened just at a time when many, many London homeless families are being "shipped" up north. The reason being that the system is at full capacity and demand is growing due to rocketing private rents and welfare "reforms". It really is a very complex background.

Battleax · 18/12/2017 16:10

Sorry that should've been ? not !

Puzzledandpissedoff · 18/12/2017 16:13

Whitney you make a good point about safety compliance of the actual materials, but other aspects which often raises their ugly heads are the illegal "cutting of corners" in construction and maintenance and the often-reported corruption involving councils and contractors

I really wouldn't want to be in charge of getting to the truth of this whole issue, because IME that's where the hard-to-unravel excuses start: "I was on holiday/out of the office", "I didn't see that memo", "such and such (who's conveniently now left) told me to do it", etc, etc Hmm

Whitney168 · 18/12/2017 16:26

Yes, agree Puzzledandpissedoff - it is going to be very difficult indeed to work out exactly where blame lies and the reality is of course that it will be a whole mix of reasons which you would like to hope are not replicated elsewhere (but unfortunately probably are).

But whatever, reality is that there cannot be a solution that does not a) cost the country and the Council a whole heap of money, and even if all the money in the world were able to rectify it, there is no fast perfect solution.

cathf · 18/12/2017 16:36

I think the only 'acceptable' outcome of the enquiry will be the council were to blame.
Anything other than this will be seized on by groups with their own agenda and it will all kick off again.

BellaDarkness · 18/12/2017 16:44

Joe Delaney on Talk Radio last week has not been offered a thing in Kensington or elsewhere. He also condemns the group who tried to organize the Day of Rage.

talkradio.co.uk/news/grenfell-tower-displaced-resident-joe-delaney-says-hes-not-been-offered-thing-and-reports

Puzzledandpissedoff · 18/12/2017 16:44

I totally agree, kath. Just on here we've seen time and again that a particular narrative is the only thing some will accept - they're not likely to be happy with anything which goes against it, no matter what the evidence may say

Puzzledandpissedoff · 18/12/2017 16:50

Where the heck did that "k" come from?? Sorry, cath Blush

EMSMUM16 · 18/12/2017 17:53

*Battleaxe -
"A lot of the life experiences of the poor are psychologically detrimental."

Bloody hell, using language like 'poor' - what century are we in??
Has anyone heard of deserving/undeserving?? This is where those higher ups decide who deserves and who doesn't deserve. Yes it has been historically based on class prejudice and judgemental attitudes but we should at this stage be moving away from accepting this idea that 'some deserve / some don't '.
The flats designed for people renting privately metres from this tower block are certainly safe & fire proof I'm sure. But if this did occur outside of a local authority property how different would the response be from the public? Local authority? Newspapers & media?
Pretty sure that there would be companies / individuals held responsible pretty damn quick.
There is no room here for more prejuduce against these families and individuals who have lost family members, health, homes. It is this very attitude towards housing 'the poor'(!!) that allowed the housing department to provide homes that were too dangerous to live in in the first place.
Whose responsibility is it if it is not the local authority? The families and individuals should be homed temporarily in the same borough in bloody 5 star accommodation as far as I'm concerned until a suitable home is found that meets theirs and their family needs. Bearing in mind their individual needs,I mean, losing your home is one thing, having it burnt to the ground due to negligence of the building is quite another.

Battleax · 18/12/2017 18:00

The families and individuals should be homed temporarily in the same borough in bloody 5 star accommodation as far as I'm concerned until a suitable home is found that meets theirs and their family needs.

Don't you think that's vaguely cruel? I don't think you're alone in your thinking that luxury somehow compensates for tragedy, but what they really need is stability and justice, not a temporary taste of how "the other half" (1% in fact) live.

ChakraLines · 18/12/2017 21:25

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EMSMUM16 · 18/12/2017 22:46

Battleaxe -
My reference wasn't meant to be taken literally! I mean that they should be given what they need in order to start the recovery process, and no I don't think it is cruel to place these families and individuals somewhere that might be considered comfortable and convenient - bear in mind some people will never recover.

To be honest, your post is uncomfortable to read, you are assuming that if someone who lived in these flats were moved on a temporary basis to a comfortable environment, they would somehow not understand that this would be temporary, and part of a recovery process. These are not stupid people, why are you assuming that this is the case? They need support and a lot of leeway and understanding, not assumptions that add to their trauma and vulnerability. Temporary housing should meet their needs, and this requires a great deal of care and assessment on the part of the local housing authority and medical professionals.
What happens from the initial tragedy could easily cause further trauma, or if handled well and carefully, with full engagement and understanding from professionals (I think there is something about taking into account individual circumstances and any accommodation being suited and appropriate) - could help the start of a long recovery process.

Yes, I know that the majority of people in this country are in debt and struggling, what's your point here??

What I do know is that recovering from this for the majority will not be easy, and it is everyone's responsibility to ensure that this time, the local authority & Government get it right, This comes before anything else, it should be an absolute priority to ensure a safe home, bearing in mind the trauma that these events will have left on the people caught up in these horrendous events.

Battleax · 19/12/2017 00:13

To be honest, your post is uncomfortable to read, you are assuming that if someone who lived in these flats were moved on a temporary basis to a comfortable environment, they would somehow not understand that this would be temporary, and part of a recovery process. These are not stupid people, why are you assuming that this is the case? They need support and a lot of leeway and understanding, not assumptions that add to their trauma and vulnerability.

You can post long waffly posts if you like it don't put your fiction in my mouth. Really, what nonsense.

You said the survivors should be given 5* temporary accommodation.

I said that actually I thought it was cruel to do that when what was really most important now was stability and justice.

And from that exchange you invent all of that?!

Similarly, you objected to my use of "the poor" to mean "the poor" upthread and launched off into some strange rant about deserving and undeserving and what have you, which nobody had said, meant or alluded to.

The poor are poor, most of them are working poor and the market has been allowed to distort to keep them that way, but if we get too mealy mouthed and euphemistic about it, nobody will recognise that we do - shamefully - have millions of poor.

I wouldn't mind you hair splitting and inventing things to be upset about so much if it weren't for your own use of "these people".

Perhaps you could do me a favour and ignore my posts. I'll gladly ignore yours. You don't seem to understand what anyone else is saying and your own contributions are unreadable.

ginghambox · 19/12/2017 00:34

What a load of bolllocks, the LEGALresidents should be rehoused where ever possible. The illlegal ones should be subject to law no compo and be deported.

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