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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be a bit anal about car seats?

66 replies

Chocwocdoodah · 10/12/2017 21:27

I’m often asked to give other parents’ kids lifts. Or other parents offer to take my children places in their car. But I always feel a bit of a prat asking if I can borrow an extra seat for their kid/ offer to lend mine if they’re driving my kid. I’m often met with a surprised reaction.

I just don’t feel comfortable with my child not being properly restrained in someone else’s car or driving an unrestrained child in my car. Not to mention, you can get fined for it. I feel really anxious when a situation like this comes up as I feel like the car seat police.

Just me?

OP posts:
Chocwocdoodah · 10/12/2017 21:54

Most of her female friends are quite little, definitely not 135cm

OP posts:
Afreshturkeyplease · 10/12/2017 21:56

My 9 year old is just over 135

My 8 year old is about 127

GreenBook · 10/12/2017 21:57

My 6yo is the only child in her class using a HBB, and many don't appear to use any car seat at all. She's a full 15cm below the legal limit - even her taller friends are nowhere near it - but I'm greeted with surprise and a bit of irritation when I send her with one when she's being given a lift by other parents.

I even bought a blow-up one which fits in her school bag to make things easier, but it turns out that people don't bother to blow it up as 'it looks complicated' so I now send her with a plastic one that you just shove in the car.

As for my 9yo (short for her age and below the limit), I've had to stop some quite nasty remarks about car seats when I've had her and her friends in the car. And also to make it plain that in my car her friends will go on boosters, regardless of what they do elsewhere, because I'm the driver and I'm legally responsible.

grobagsforever · 10/12/2017 22:03

Well if you read the science behind car seats YABU. They have actually been shown to offer little benefit. But manufacturers of expensive car seats don't want us to know that.

I use them and I borrow more if taking extra kids. But don't assume that just because we're told something is safer, it is.

Justkeepleft · 10/12/2017 22:04

Mope. I am with you. My 9 year old is tall enough but slight build. I have in in a job. Most of the driving we do is highway.
I all so arrive with a carseat for my kid for school trips or extra seats in my car when I drive on the school trips. You don't get a do over on this choice.

Changebagsandgladrags · 10/12/2017 22:04

We do lots of lift sharing and a car seat always comes with the kid.

grobagsforever · 10/12/2017 22:07

For those who want to critically review the evidence: freakonomics.com/tag/car-seats/

StarWarsFanatic · 10/12/2017 22:09

YANBU. Safety first and all that.

ginteresting · 10/12/2017 22:13

growbagsforever- i can totally imagine that in a crash/emergency situation that is totally true. But, as a parent you do what you can do to minimise risks and a car seat is a small inconvenience to maximise(whatever you can) safety.

ginteresting · 10/12/2017 22:14

Apologies for the totallys Blush

PurpleMinionMummy · 10/12/2017 22:27

Yanbu. As the driver it's your responsibility to ensure all passengers under 14 I think it is, are suitably restrained. So it's all well and good for other parents to say it's fine, its not them who will potentially be in the legal shitter should an accident happen.

PurpleMinionMummy · 10/12/2017 22:31

That link is American. I dare say their laws and safety standards are different to ours.

blackteasplease · 10/12/2017 22:37

I had a request recently to give my ds's friend and his Mum a lift with no car seat for the child (3 nearly 4). She suggested he could sit on her lap. I just said I wasn't comfortable with it and she was fine.

I only have a booster for dd (aged 9, over 135 but still comfortable on it - the seat belt is a better height with than without) and a highback booster looking seat but with 5 point harness for d's (3). I haven't got any other seats and only four seat belts in total. So not even enough to go round.

geekone · 10/12/2017 22:39

It really depends on the height my DS who is 7 is 145cm and his friend 137cm both ok without a car seat. Height is the issue not age.

BertieBotts · 10/12/2017 23:08

OP you aren't being anal, just sensible. I think it is possible to get a bit too anal about car seats. And I say this as a person who reads far too much about them in general as I find them weirdly fascinating!

IMO, buy the safest you can reasonably afford for your own car and regular journeys. Rearface for as long as is practical. Don't push over into what you can't afford, that's not necessary - there are cheap enough seats on the market these days, though I would stick to trusted brands (Generally the cheap ones which are alright are either Joie or Britax.) I don't like Nania or their clones. (These tend to have rucksack style strap adjustment, not the one-pull method from the bottom of the seat - easiest way to spot.) The line which is currently going around about keeping children harnessed until they are about 9 is misleading - it's OK to switch to a high backed booster when your child outgrows their seat as long as the booster fits them well and they can be trusted not to wriggle out of it. In fact some believe this is safer than a forward facing harnessed seat because the play in the seatbelt puts less strain on the neck than a fixed harness. (Loose harnesses are dangerous, so you can't counter it that way). It is worth using a booster seat until the seatbelt stops irritating your child's neck without it and they can bend their knees over the edge of the seat with their bum against the backrest, even if they're over 135cm at this point. There's no actual max weight for boosters (either type). A properly fitting seat is safer than an outgrown one but in general the lower the age group, the higher the protection offered.

It's okay to relax the standards for occasional use or tricky situations.

The Freakonomics data is sound actually, and does apply to European seats too and has been repeated with modern seats so isn't outdated. However it only looks at figures of death, not serious injury - so for age 3 to 135cm in height, I would still say that seatbelt only is for really unavoidable situations. It's better to have them on even a cushion booster (better a highback booster) if at all possible. Luckily these types of seats are easily portable and extremely cheap. IMO if you have a child over 3 or 4 you should always have at least one spare cushion type booster, for transporting extra children or for unexpected/tricky trips for your own child.

Any car seat is better than none. This idea that anything less than the shiniest, newest thing installed perfectly is a death trap is incorrect. It's true you should pay close attention to fitting advice because sometimes incorrect fitting can cause dangerous situations, but there are reports from the 70s and 80s of seats which have been installed totally incorrectly, with children of completely the wrong age group in them, seats which would never pass any safety testing today, and yet they have saved children's lives.

Never share a seatbelt between two people, especially tucking a baby into an adult's one. Don't use cushions or other items as makeshift boosters - without the reinforced hooks to hold the belt in place it's more dangerous than using nothing. Don't tuck the shoulder belt behind a child or under their arm. And be extremely cautious about front seat airbags and children as these can seriously injure them.

I will never forget reading a post on a parenting forum when DS was little from a poster whose mother worked as a police officer in a country where the car seat laws were lax, meaning she saw accidents with any combination of unrestrained, poorly restrained and properly restrained children, in good seats, bad seats, forward facing, rear facing, old, new. She said that the children who were restrained survived car accidents, and the children who were unrestrained did not. It did not matter what type of restraint was used.

Claireshh · 10/12/2017 23:16

Thank you for your post Bertie. I genuinely found it interesting. My eldest is 8.5 and is over 135cm in height. She is still using her high back booster. I was confused about whether she should use it or not. Loads of her friends don’t use them now. The booster is up until age 12. I’m not 100% sure, even after reading your post, whether she is safer in her high back booster or without a seat and just a seat belt. I’ll check the position of her shoulder strap when she is next in the car.

MuddlingMackem · 10/12/2017 23:27

BertieBotts Sun 10-Dec-17 23:08:47

It is worth using a booster seat until the seatbelt stops irritating your child's neck without it and they can bend their knees over the edge of the seat with their bum against the backrest, even if they're over 135cm at this point.

We did this for both of ours, so they were well over 135cm, possibly over 145cm by the time they ditched the boosters, as the back seat in our car at the time was deeper than most, yet they ditched the boosters up to a year earlier in other family members' cars which had back seats which weren't as deep.

Chocwocdoodah · 10/12/2017 23:28

It’s a bloody minefield isn’t it? But the upshot is, most of DDs friends are of a size where they definitely need a seat.

I just wish a 3rd party could somehow get the mssg across not to put other parents in a position where you ask them to drive their child unrestrained or vice versa with your child. Would be great if the school could somehow get that across to parents ( I am not suggesting in any way this is their responsibility - it’s not - I just would like it to come from someone else so I don’t have to have awkward conversations!!)

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 10/12/2017 23:48

Claire - always safer in a seat than not unless she's busting out of it like the Hulk Grin

DS is 9 and still in his high back booster at 138cm. It's law until 150cm in Germany where we live, but even in England, I'd still have him on it until it was outgrown. However, despite being sold as suitable up to 12, he's on the highest notch for the headrest so I don't think he'll be in it until 150cm.

I will keep him in the high backed booster until his shoulders are irritated by hitting against the headrest, or until I notice that the seatbelt is coming up and over him rather than being flat across his shoulder (this means a child is too big for a forward facing seat).

After this, if we were in England and he could sit with his bum right to the back and his knees over the edge of the car bench seat, then I'd ditch any car seat whatsoever. In Germany we'll have to keep using a seat until he's 150cm so we will switch to a low booster when he gets too big for the high backed one. On a recent trip to the UK he used the low booster 60% of the time and nothing the rest of the time, and I was very happy with the fit on the booster. I felt he was just a little too short without it, and tended to slouch forwards because his knees didn't quite bend at the end which is uncomfortable for them.

I am absolutely unbothered by him travelling without a car seat for occasional trips now, though would prefer the use of a low booster. But we'll keep the seat in our car until it's outgrown, because why not? If it's there you might as well use it.

Swirlingasong · 10/12/2017 23:52

I'm the same. It can be awkward but I can live with people thinking I am odd. I couldn't live with something happening to a child who was not properly restrained simply because I had felt too awkward to say no.

I agree that there needs to be more public awareness as there are a lot of people who are lax purely for their own convenience.

Phuquocdreams · 11/12/2017 02:00

Bertie and Growbags, that's totally fascinating. So the data in favour of car seats seems much less than I would have thought?

MrsTerryPratchett · 11/12/2017 02:19

The problem with car seats is this. The government has a vested interest in seeming like they care about children's safety PARTICULARLY when it's free for them to do so, as in the case of car seats. The rely on data from the car seat manufacturers, whose data comes from facilities whose income depends on the car seat manufacturers having to change everything every five minutes.

It's shitty science based on vested interest. Which is why the height restrictions and age restrictions and weight restrictions seem bollocks. Apart from being 65, my mates mum should be in one. It's clearly nonsense.

And we are all desperately hoping car seats keep our children safe, while appealing to our want to be on the right side of the law. Go ahead if it makes you feel better but chances are the seats for older/bigger children don't do anything or possibly make things worse.

ProseccoMamam · 11/12/2017 03:50

If not wanting to put my own children and other people's children in danger makes me anal then I don't care. I would not dare put a child in my car without them being properly restrained. I could not live with myself if something happened and probably couldn't even bay park without panicking if the child had an arm free. The thought makes me nervous, I couldn't.

BertieBotts · 11/12/2017 07:54

The data in favour of car seats up until about 2 or 3 years old is absolutely sound. Never travel with a young child without a car seat unless you absolutely can't help it.

For older children, it's much less of an issue, but it's still better to use one than not and there are issues which can be caused by using a seatbelt alone. Google seatbelt syndrome, if you are feeling brave. Remember that seatbelts are designed for use by the average man, which also means that shorter than average or big-breasted women can suffer seatbelt related injuries because the belt is not really designed for their body shape. Of course, it's still better to wear one than not. Technically yes many adult women would be better off in booster type seats but of course we don't do this - perhaps in the future more adjustments will be possible to seatbelts in cars in order to fit more body types.

It is only fairly recently (around 15 years ago) that seats for older children were made mandatory. If you look at BBC news reports from the end of the 90s, early 00s before they brought in this law, there was a lot of talk of different tactics to get parents to use car seats including public information films, safety campaigns, leaflets, advice from health visitors etc. In many ways this would have been better, to get parents to buy and use a seat for their regular car driving but to have the freedom and flexibility to use other solutions or go without a seat for occasional trips or unexpected lifts etc. However what happened in reality was that everyone used car seats until their children were about 3 and then used nothing at all. Only the most stringent used booster seats. So eventually it was reluctantly decided that the way to get most people using car seats for longer would be to legislate. This has brought about the biggest change in usage patterns, although of course there are still people who don't use car seats at all or for children over 3.

I don't believe it's a conspiracy from crash test operators. That's the part I disagree with from Freakonomics. There are seats on the market which have been on sale for around 20 years without changing (the Cabriofix, for example). European regulated car seats do not expire and it's not illegal to use an old one which conforms to older regulations, just to sell the older models. Legislation tends to overlap for a very long time because it's not important to have the latest and greatest, this is mainly marketing.

Ilovewillow · 11/12/2017 08:02

I'm with you! I take the view that if I wouldn't travel with my own child in a situation the I wouldn't travel with anyone else's either. I keep a spare high back booster in the car (my eldest has grown out of it)!