To want to know why Tesco won't sell me alcohol when I'm with my teenage daughter

[MrsSchadenfreude]

Given that it is perfectly legal for me to give her a glass of wine to drink at home (and has been since she was 5)? Was told in Tesco today that I couldn't buy wine as DD1 was with me. DD1 is 19 but had no ID on her, as we had just nipped out for a few bits. Cashier finally called a manager, who gave me the Spanish Inquisition, and finally said "OK, I trust that you aren't going to give any to your daughter."

It's not like I was buying WKD - I had a bottle of Champagne and one of an expensive Bordeaux!

oliver
You don’t sound charming enough to be young enough to be asked!

TBH I never carry ID
so when they "ID check" me the grey hair usually does the trick

then again I buy most of my booze in Waitrose and Majestric, both of whom have staff with manners

^ I was given a bollocking in my last job by my area manager for serving someone who I knew to be 18 without asking for ID... and I knew he was 18 because he was the area manager's son who talked about his son constantly and showed us pictures of his 18th birthday party!! But apparently I was still to ID him because he didn't look 25. Cashiers can't win sometimes.

That is bonkers singing

It does seem that cashiers cannot win. Your example makes it perfectly clear that the whole palaver is for show - why else would you need to check the age if someone whose age you know, especially when the manager knows you know ?! Bloody box-ticking nonsense with no rational purpose.

Ta1kin - the legislation says that you can't allow a proxy sale.

The problem is, how do you prove a proxy sale? It relies on allowing personal judgement. Clearly supermarkets and shops are too afraid of losing their licence and so they've effectively removed the ability of individual staff to use discretion. Blanket policies are in place instructing staff to ID anyone who may appear to be under 25 or accompanied by someone who might be under 25. Staff are then afraid for their jobs if they don't comply.

It just puts staff in a difficult position. Use discretion and risk being caught not ID ing someone over 18 but under 25 or upsetting a customer by applying a silly rule.

sweetie
the legislation says that you can't allow a proxy sale.
Link please

because in the link above from Drinkaware that I posted, there is no black and white

I can't link directly for some reason but here is an explanation

"Proxy sales of alcohol
'Proxy sales' is a term used to describe the purchase of alcohol on behalf of children.

A person commits an offence if they buy or attempt to buy alcohol on behalf someone under the age of 18. It is also an offence for a person to buy or attempt to buy alcohol for someone under the age of 18 to drink on licensed premises. However, it is legal for someone over 18 to buy beer, wine or cider for someone aged 16 or 17 to drink with a table meal on licensed premises, as long as the young person is accompanied at the meal by a person over the age of 18.

Although it is the person who buys or attempts to buy alcohol for a child who commits the offence, you have a duty under 'the protection of children from harm' licensing objective to prevent such sales from occurring."

If you google proxy sales the legislation comes up.

We aren't making this up. It clearly is a difficult law to implement and therefore shops are simplifying it by basically pushing staff to ID everyone.

I was with my then 22 year old daughter in Tesco and she had a bottle of NON-alcoholic wine. The checkout assistant refused to sell it to her as she didn't have ID. I pointed out that it wasn't actually alcohol, but she wouldn't budge. I told my daughter to put it in my trolley, but the checkout assistant said she wouldn't sell it to me as I would give it to my daughter. I couldn't believe it! At this point a supervisor who had been helping at the next till told the checkout assistant use a bit of commin sense and to sell it to me.

sweetie
I know what a Proxy sale is.
I also know that shops will gold plate legislation to cover their arses

so I'd like to know which part of the licencing laws requires ID when shopping with a teen ...

I've just looked up Proxy Purchasing on Legislation.gov.uk
www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/895/contents/made
No mention of booze in that ....

I don't think it's about requiring ID when shopping with a teen, per say.

The problem is that the cashier can't be sure if the adult is buying the alcohol for the teen (realistically how can you know?) So, to cover themselves they should be asking the teen for ID.

In theory, that would then stop a proxy sale.

It is all very difficult. How can you ever prove a proxy sale - unless you hear a child ask someone to buy it? It's all opinion and if you know your job is at risk if you make the wrong call I totally understand why cashiers err on the side of caution.

No good throwing a hissy fit at the cashier. It will need the stores to change their policy or the law to be changed to make licensees not responsible for proxy sales for it to change.

The legislation you've linked to is specifically for nicotine so it won't mention alcohol.

The "Proxy sale" legislation is not about alcohol - read the link.

Until I see a link which mentions ID checks / limits on adults buying alcohol
I shall retain my view that the shops are making it up.

If you have a younger teenager don't take them with you when purchasing alcohol. Easier all round and no hassle! Thus, teaching your lad that shopping is always done by Mum and that the fridge fairy restocks everything? I don't bloody think so.

sweetie
Find me the legislation about proxy sales for alcohol then ....

The problem is that the cashier can't be sure if the adult is buying the alcohol for the teen (realistically how can you know?) So, to cover themselves they should be asking the teen for ID. Why? It is perfectly legal to let your teen have alcohol at home, and if you are over 18, you should not be stopped from buying alcohol when with your teenager, just in case you might let them have a sip of your wine later.

How can you prove that if I buy varnish remover that my child is not going to sniff it later, or cut himself with my new kitchen knife?

I can't link at the moment (on my phone) but my post above cites "the protection of children from harm' licensing objective. Google that and see what it says.

Ultimately though it doesn't matter wether you accept it or not. You can't make the shop sell an age restricted item (or indeed any item) to you. If they ask for ID and you can't or won't provide it they won't sell the item to you.

Try this

liverpoolscb.proceduresonline.com/chapters/p_prot_ch_harm.html

This also covers it

www.richmond.gov.uk/tsleaflets?article=273308#tsi3

Both of those are guidance.
The legislation does not specify age identification policies

retailers can (and do) make it up to gold plate

Ok. Well, good luck arguing your point.

Sweetie
My point is that there is no legislation that says that a supermarket has to ID an adult shopping with a child in tow.

Shops may have policies and there is local council guidance
but it is not the law
so if I get grief I'll take my custom to a shop that treats me like the adult I am
and which treats its staff like humans

It is all very difficult. How can you ever prove a proxy sale - unless you hear a child ask someone to buy it? It's all opinion and if you know your job is at risk if you make the wrong call I totally understand why cashiers err on the side of caution.

The key with Proxy sales basically boils down to "Plausible deniability" on the part of the cashier. If you give any indication that you are buying an age restricted product for someone I think/know is underage or has already been refused service (due to not being able to prove their age) then I cannot make the sale, but if you make no such indication then I have plausible deniability and cannot be held responsible for what you do with the items once you have left the store.

So if you come to the checkouts with your late teen children and are just putting through a general food shop, I have no reason to believe that the bottle of wine you have is for them specifically and so have no need to ID them. If however you have a few bottles of alcohol and are discussing a party or are chatting and making comments that either suggest or explicitly say that the alcohol is for them, then I will ask for their ID too.

For example I was on the Customer Service desk at work today and a woman walked up to the desk with her two teen children, the boy looked about 15/16and the girl about 18 (but both were definitely under 21). The lady asked where the video games were stocked and I pointed them all in the direction of our games stand, where all the display boxes are for the games we stock but as it had been a busy day I did advise we may not have every game available. A bit later the two teenagers came to my desk with the girl holding two of the display boxes and asked me to check if they were in stock. I checked the stock level (I have a locked cupboard behind my desk where all the video games etc are kept) and we had both so told her that and she then turned to the boy and asked which he wanted me to get out.

Unfortunately he wanted the game that had an 18 rating. I am not allowed to sell 18 rated games to someone under 18. I asked the boy if he had ID (just in case he was actually 18 and just looked young) but he didn't so I said I couldn't sell the game to him. His sister immediately said she had her ID but I had to explain that I couldn't sell the game to her as I knew it was for her brother and he wasn't 18 and I couldn't allow the sale. They both looked a bit sulky but walked off. A while later a checkout runner came over to ask for the exact same game and a little alarm went off in my head so I asked the runner to point out which customer it was for - lo and behold it was the mother. I explained to the runner what had happened earlier and said that I had reasonable belief that the game was being bought for the woman's son and since I had already explicitly told him he could not buy it, nor could anyone buy it on his behalf, I could not give her the game. She went back to the customer to explain the situation and I called my manager to relay the situation just in case the customer kicked off ... fortunately for me she was a unicorn of a customer and accepted she couldn't buy it and was more annoyed with her son trying to circumvent the rules (despite being explicitly told about them) than she was with us for not selling it.

@Ta 1kinPeace

You are right, there is no specific legislation for that situation. However the laws that do exist are so open to interpretation, confusing and non specific and with the current climate of 'lets blame everyone else', it's a great cop out for, well everyone.

There is media coverage of an underage drinking problem a few years ago. The powers that be shout that they have made retailers more responsible for their alcohol sale to combat underage drinking , retailers shout that they have -bullied- 'trained' their staff and implemented policies to combat underage drinking and Joe public nod along sagely and agree that 'something needed to be done'. Then well, Joe public shouts at the shop assistant because they can't purchase something they want, and they don't understand the laws which the policies have been derived from. All the policies and laws have done is make a show of tackling a problem, without actually doing anything at all, and piss people off.

then again I buy most of my booze in Waitrose and Majestric, both of whom have staff with manners

or maybe those stores have better policies and people with a brain in charge. Of course though, it would have to be the staff's fault because it's much easier to just shout at the cashier isn't it?

Trading standards test purchase fail is immediate prosecution and being sacked.

Surely that is for under 18, not 18+ without ID. You cannot be prosecuted for something that is not illegal ie selling a bottle of wine to an adult.