To wonder why MN is so left wing/liberal?

[cdvegan2023]

MN hates Brexit, the tories, pink toys, violent video games... you get the idea. But in real life most women don't mind buying gender specific toys/clothes and the election/brexit female vote was about 50/50. So what makes this place 90% lefty/lib when general society is either split or completely reversed?

Your representation of abortion is completely misleading. And your insistence that women should be forced to carry and give birth to a baby who will live a short and painful life is, frankly, cruel.

But why do you think the right to life (any life at all, apparently, even if brief and painful) is more important than the autonomy of prexisting life? It is a very complicated moral issue, of course, but you could ask why the future wellbeing, physical, mental and economic, of an existing viable living person should not be considered at least as important as the potential for life of a human who is not independently viable and may not ever be viable.

I suppose that if you are religious and believe in an eternal God-sprung soul, it would affect how you approach this problem.

It's not really a left and right wing thing, though, is it? It's complete bollocks to suggest that the left-wing hide behind 'pro choice'. At least that's less emotive than 'pro life' which suggests that people in favour of allowing women to choose if they are incubators or not are pro death.

*right to life to me is the most important right”

Each to their own. To me, it’s important that a woman who is faced with an unwanted pregnancy isn’t forced to give birth and raise an unwanted child.

How do you support women and their families who choose to continue with pregnancies they aren’t emotionally or financially ready for, missymoo?

i suppose that if you are religious...

ontop When you think about it, it’s funny how many rules most religions have about women and reproduction. Almost as though they were patriarchial in origin and focussed on trying to control female sexuality.

No a feticide intracardiac injection is not always used:

Macfarlane et al (2003) found that termination of pregnancy accounted for 33% of deliveries at 20 to 23 weeks, with 35% of those showing signs of life at birth, suggesting that a number of terminations continue to take place without feticide.

Extract from rcm

And i consider the almost eradication of babies with Down syndrome, who can and have been aborted upto birth very cruel

You think abortion doesn't benefit men-
You don't think it's a hugely lucrative industry that a lot of people are making money from
You think women pressured into abortion because of their careers or partners is really always free choice
You think women who have sex selective abortions are making this of free choice
You think men also may not want to have children and therefore are likely to support abortion
Objecting to abortion has nothing to do with patriarchy

If anything patriarchy would be the reason FOR abortion- because women as the ones who carry and birth children are disadvantaged by it and feel a need to abort their child.
Abortion has benefited men and its benefited all the people getting rich off the back of it.

And saying babies living a short and painful life isn't pro life- this doesn't reflect that babies with conditions like Down's syndrome are frequently being aborted yet would likely not lead a short and painful life.

Missy I have the utmost respect for people who know they are having a child with Down's and continuing with that pregnancy, knowing what it will probably entail. I would never tell a woman who has made that decision she is wrong. I will equally never tell a woman who has chosen not to continue that pregnancy is wrong - because the bottom line is that it is her decision. Not mine. Not yours. Just hers. That is the point you are spectacularly missing.

And missy are you also aware of the fact that people with Down's Syndrome develop Alzheimer's Disease at far higher rates and much younger than people who do not have Down's? As a parent, that would be another thing you would need to consider. Having watched my father suffer with dementia, it isn't a choice I would feel it ethical to make.

objecting to abortion has nothing to do with patriarchy

But the original point was with regard to religion which has everything to do with patriarchy.

Look at all the rules of Catholicism : no sex before marriage, no access to contraception, no abortion either in or out of wedlock. The vilification of single mothers but the men who impregnate them, not so much.

It’s relevant because strong religious beliefs may be barriers to access to effective contraception and safe abortion.

missymoo maybe we’ll just have to disagree about abortion access but agree that all women should have better access to affordable contraception?

medicine.wustl.edu/news/access-to-free-birth-control-reduces-abortion-rates/

I understand what you are saying , I haven't missed your point but I disagree on the grounds of protecting human life. It's not about "controlling" someone's body- I do not care what people do with their bodies, but I do care about the baby they carry because it's a person in its own right.
I'm not in favour of abolishing abortion I recognise a case for it- but I do think it should be more restricted, 24 weeks is too far imo to be able to have an abortion because of "personal choice".
And cases of offering a woman the choice to be able to terminate a Down's syndrome pregnancy just a few week from birth is appalling.

OK, so where do you stand on post 24 week abortions for conditions not compatible with life? Or for women who have been raped? Or for women who for whatever reason - domestic violence, fear, change of circumstances - don't get the diagnosis that their babies have serious abnormalities until late? And you haven't addressed the poster above who pointed out that cleft lip and palate are often indicators of much more serious conditions.

FWIW my opinion is that the life that should be prioritised should always be that of the woman - to do otherwise is to go the way of El Salvador, where women have been jailed for having a miscarriage.

My mum was a victim of domestic violence but luckily she didn't abort me. That's where I stand.

That was her choice. She would have had just as much right to make a different choice. I note you do not have easy answers to any of the other scenarios.

So, based on your family’s experience you think all women who become pregnant in abusive environments should be forced to give birth?

I am saying that my life has value, as does all human life.

Late abortions take place under anesthetic.

When the right are prepared to fund childrens homes, childcare, daycare and benefits for mothers, you can spout anti abortion rhetoric. Until then you just look like a bunch of hypocrites.

Zero time for anti-choicers and the bullshit they spout. Women are more than vessels.

Yes except i have said I'm not anti abortion but I do think it should be more restricted.
Late abortions >24 week, same cannot be said for up to that gestation.

im saying that my life has value

How does a woman making a different choice to that which your mother made devalue your life?

Trijo-
Yes and the unborn are more than lumps of tissue.
Anyhow we should probably change the subject as detailing the thread completely.

"Yes except i have said I'm not anti abortion but I do think it should be more restricted."

So you are anti abortion. Or, to be more realistic, pro forced birth.

How does a woman making a different choice to that which your mother made devalue your life?

Life has intrinsic value regardless of the parental circumstances.