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Original poster

To be unhappy about this transgender loose application of science?

101 replies

Highlight775 · 01/12/2017 15:28

Now don't get me wrong, I am 100% on board with the idea of gender and sex being different things and that gender is primarily a social construct as its per formative not characteristic.

HOWEVER, I have recently undergone a Diversity training course in work where we were informed that "there are more than two sexes" and that people are often born as "a woman in a mans body" and vice versa and that there are numerous different variations. I get that can be true from a gender role perspective, but when this point was raised we were told no, its a biological reality as well. Apparently this is due to extra XX and XY chromosomes being present in some people in configurations such as XXY, XXX etc.

Now my issue here is that configuration of chromosomes is only a characteristic of sex in mammals (and not even all mammals at that). It seems we are redefining an entire classification system used in a huge area of natural science on the basis of what exactly?

If it was really true that there are "more than two sexes", surely this is something that biologist would have identified years ago?

OP posts:
PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 01/12/2017 19:17

Anyone who need help getting pregant is not a woman and doesn't know what it feels like to be a woman?

Uh, people with Swyer Syndrome are women. It's an intersex disorder that affects females.

Original poster
Highlight775 · 01/12/2017 19:17

Correctingbigots

Are you serious?! What hate speech?

OP posts:
CorrectingBigots · 01/12/2017 19:18

PleaseDontGoadTheToad

They are XY same as a trans woman, trans women are a verison of intersex also

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 01/12/2017 19:19

Intersex people are NOT a third sex.

They are NOT a variation.

They are men and women who have a chromosomal disorder but they are nonetheless still male or female.

Uokbing · 01/12/2017 19:19

Correcting as others have said, sometimes people are born with one leg or even no legs. Sometimes this is due to some sort of chemical in the body causing the defect, sometimes it is just something that happens in nature. This does not mean that humans cannot be classified as a bipedal species. Or does it?

AssassinatedBeauty · 01/12/2017 19:19

The case you mentioned involved extensive hormone treatment, a donor egg and continuing medical intervention. She didn't just get pregnant, it was known that she had a mosaicism form of Swyers and had appropriate medical intervention to help with fertility.

None of these extremely unusual exceptions proves anything at all about humans having more than two sexes.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/12/2017 19:20

Do you think that something biological could be going on with trans people that affects them

I think brain chemistry is very interesting, and the way mental health issues develop. The whole area is very poorly understood.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 01/12/2017 19:21

Transwomen are raised and socialised as male.

Women with swyer syndrome are raised and socialised as female.

They are NOT the same thing. Stop being so bloody ignorant.

CorrectingBigots · 01/12/2017 19:21

AssassinatedBeauty
Who said anything about more thean two sexes, trans women are women just born with XY instead of XX they are women with an intersex condition.

Uokbing · 01/12/2017 19:22

Anyone who need help getting pregant is not a woman and doesn't know what it feels like to be a woman?

Who said that?

sagamartha · 01/12/2017 19:23

I think brain chemistry is very interesting, and the way mental health issues develop. The whole area is very poorly understood

I agree - there's lots we don't know.

(I am not going to engage with correcting)

As someone who is trans, I have no idea what's going on inside my brain. I just know that something is going on and I know how it's getting better, I do know that there are really crap days. It's so hard to explain about how I feel about how I perceive myself and how I want to be perceived.

It's......complicated.

AssassinatedBeauty · 01/12/2017 19:25

Trans people are not intersex. Otherwise they would have issues around their chromosomes and development. Trans women are totally unexceptional XY males, trans men are XX females. Nothing intersex about it. I think intersex people may well just be a little annoyed that their experiences are being co-opted by transactivists to try and justify their claims.

CorrectingBigots · 01/12/2017 19:25

PleaseDontGoadTheToad
So sex is a social construct and not biologic what age must a XY intersex trans women start to be socialised as a girl for you to consider then female, we see trans girls going to school from as eairly as age six as they socialised enough as female for you to consider them female.

If a girl is a tomboy and raised by a single dad does this make them male to you even if they just are a tomboy don't identify as male?

Uokbing · 01/12/2017 19:25

Who said anything about more thean two sexes, trans women are women just born with XY instead of XX they are women with an intersex condition.

No they are not. Transwoman have nothing in common with women. There is not a single thing that scientist could take to prove that a transwoman is a woman 'just born with XY instead of XY'. The only thing they have is their 'woman feeling' and we have already established that womanhood is not just a 'feeling'.

Are you being deliberately goady because you are talking total bollocks here.

sagamartha · 01/12/2017 19:26

Transwomen are raised and socialised as male

Whilst at the same time, knowing something is going on in their brain and with their body....

Annelind · 01/12/2017 19:26

I have noticed some post menopausal women become more masculine looking as they age, and believe this is because of declining oestregen levels and becoming more sensitive to the testosterone we also carry? Still women though.

CorrectingBigots · 01/12/2017 19:27

sagamartha

A trans woman that came out and socialised a girl from the age of six would still be a man to the MN Bigots.

ferntwist · 01/12/2017 19:28

Highlight it’s shockingly frightening to speak out right now but we have strength in numbers. The more of us who do, the easier it will get. At my work we’re facing some similar rubbish and three of us are grouping together to stand up to it. Our immediate managers have luckily been reasonably receptive although we’ve had hassle from one trans activist member of staff.

AssassinatedBeauty · 01/12/2017 19:29

Sex is not a social construct.

sagamartha · 01/12/2017 19:29

A trans woman that came out and socialised a girl from the age of six would still be a man to the MN Bigots

Calling people bigots really doesn't help engage people, does it Hmm

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 01/12/2017 19:31

So sex is a social construct

No it's not. It's a biological reality.

what age must a XY intersex trans women start to be socialised as a girl for you to consider then female

Uh, never because they are neither female nor intersex.

we see trans girls going to school from as eairly as age six as they socialised enough as female for you to consider them female.

Socialisation begins a lot earlier than six.

I am glad however that these trans girls are still going to school. Nice to see their parents still care about their education.

If a girl is a tomboy and raised by a single dad does this make them male to you even if they just are a tomboy don't identify as male?

It makes them a girl who is being raised by a single dad and prefers stereotypically male things to female things. It also has nothing to do with anything anyone has said here so not sure why you even brought this scenario up.

HermioneWeasley · 01/12/2017 19:34

correcting have you been drinking? What is a “tomboy”exactly? Why would being raised by one parent change your sex?

Labelling children as young as 6 as transgender is abusive. It leads to healthy children being given drugs that sterilise them and being life long medical patients. It’s appalling.

ferntwist · 01/12/2017 19:34

Correcting women are oppressed because of biology - our capacity for reproduction and often our smaller bodies. Women’s struggles are maternity rights, reproductive rights, male violence, women’s health, breastfeeding, post-natal depression, women’s cancers. None of this matters to transwomen because they are male. I don’t even know any with caring responsibilities. Their sisters and the wives they’ve abandoned do that.
The gender pay gap is largely down to maternity leave and part-time work due to caring. Transwomen don’t have a gender pay gap with other men because they are men.

sagamartha · 01/12/2017 19:37

Transwomen don’t have a gender pay gap with other men because they are men

That's not true.

None of this matters to transwomen because they are male. I don’t even know any with caring responsibilities

How many transwomen do you know personally?

Women’s struggles are maternity rights, reproductive rights, male violence, women’s health, breastfeeding, post-natal depression, women’s cancers. None of this matters to transwomen because they are male

I can assure you that many of these things matter. Male violence being one in particular.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 01/12/2017 19:39

That's not true.

Which part?

I can assure you that many of these things matter. Male violence being one in particular.

Out of all of them, male violence is the only problem I can see transwomen having to deal with.

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