To be bothered by how much we consume as a society...

[Cakelesswonder]

Don't get me wrong I love a retail therapy session but today just felt utterly gluttonous in the amount of ads for Black Friday, the 'deals, I couldn't move for emails offering me 20% off lots of things I don't need. I'm not suggesting everyone knits their own yogurt and lives like Mormons but I really feel we don't have the resources on Earth to keep consuming, throwing and consuming like we do. Everything is disposable, straws, clothes, we buy water in bottles then throw them away polluting the oceans and planet for ourselves and future generations. I have no idea what the overall solution is but it really got to me today .

Another Christmas one - don’t bother with wrapping paper as pp have suggested - I’ve used newspaper and old road maps which look great with red ribbon which we can reuse. We also reuse gift bags for relatives who don’t get it.

Decorations made of flour and water are still going after 5 years. Paper snowflakes. We do live rurally so we have access to it but we bring greenery indoors and it’s much naïcer than tinsel

Am thinking about New Year resolutions and reducing plastic has got to be it next year. Will specifically be looking for shampoo and conditioner that works for very long hair and doesn’t come in plastic. Will look for some of the ones mentioned below.

Consider getting wine (ok I could end that sentence there) from Europe rather than bottles that have been shipped from half way across the world.

I bought some cakes on sat specifically because packing looked to be all foil and cardboard. Opened box to find bloody plastic tray! Still fuming...

Isn't the kon Mari book about resetting your self Re 'stuff'? So once you've purged your home you'll realise how little you do actually love and need? I can't help but think that it's positive... I think by 'getting rid' you are encouraged to recycle or repurpose (I.e. charity) rather than actually bin?

want2b I've just looked at the Bill and Melinda Gates website and there's nothing about improving access to education. It does seem like a massive gap in their work

Completely agree op. I'm sick of the constant Black Friday emails, finding it all quite depressing. Shops are just full of Christmas plastic tat, most of which will be in the bin by new year. I've cut down on present buying for friends this year, and we have decided to spend some time together with dc instead. It's nice to have something to look forward to and spend some quality time together rather than running about buying pointless crap.

Lots to read and I realise that despite my good intentions (mooncup, charity shop clothes, etc), there's a lot more we as a family could do. First step - no buying of Christmas decs, cards or non-consumable gifts (apart from the dc as already got theirs!). I've also started buying new babies sponsored animals at a local zoo instead of more stuff.
Looking for bottles to keep hand wash in and large refills as don't like soap bars - any suggestions?

I've just looked at the Bill and Melinda Gates website and there's nothing about improving access to education. It does seem like a massive gap in their work

The great weakness of charity (and why it is ultimately our elected Government who is responsible).

Because there is no "gap" in the Gates' work. It is how they choose to spend their money.

A better question to ask would be, "How have we allowed a system to develop where 1% of the population can become so enriched and then choose which problems are most urgent?"

Apparently driverless cars are our salvation.

One easy thing to do in supermarket is buy British for fewer air miles and to support local businesses. Have never understood why people would buy Anchor Butter from New Zealand (although a lot of it now made in Denmark, I believe) when the UK has a great dairy industry (with organic products available if that’s your thing). Also please don’t buy blended butter in plastic pots! Finally, Can I echo the PP who said why not buy French/Spanish wine rather than
Australian/Chilean transported halfway round the planet. This transportation gives wine a large carbon footprint that could decrease if we drank wine made closer to home.

There have been two threads on here recently which have shocked me (well, a lot more but..)
The first was about a husband asking his wife not to use so many harsh chemicals when washing up and cleaning. Cue the whole of Mumsnet screaming that there is nothing wrong with chemicals. How dare he etc.
Second thread was about the husband wanting to dry clothes on a drying rack in doors and the wife wanting to use a tumble dryer, cue the collective rage of Mumsnet etc.
In both cases the husbands went about it the wrong way but unless some of us dare to challenge the basic premise that mothers, wives, women can do anything to the planet because they are mothers, wives, women, we will never get anywhere

@shegotbettedaviseyes I was just wondering about getting my sheepskin slippers repaired and here you appear to tell me it's possible! Did you go to a high street cobbler, or find a specialist?

Gates do work on education, particularly girls education. Their recent conference in DC had a whole education stream to it.

They're a foundation though. They can fund what they like. If you're worried, write to DFID and your MP and ask them to commit more money to education. In particular, ask for their response to the select committee report released last week that makes a stronger case for a higher education spend.

Incidentally while education is correlated with lower fertility causation is much more tricky. It's more likely to be about the power women have to control when/who/if they have sex. Which is more likely in countries where education and literacy rates are higher but not because of that. And it is, of course, important that girls are educated because it's their human right, not because we want them to behave in a particular way.

Expanding this thread slightly, what do people think about the constant drive for economic growth and increased productivity?

It really bothers me. How can we keep growing? All we are doing is creating more pointless "stuff" which people are persuaded they need and then work themselves into an early grave trying to get. Or get themselves into debt. This is an interesting article - www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/11/economic-growth/506423/.

As for productivity, I'm a professional in my late 50s and I can see that the workplace is far more pressured than it was 20 to 30 years ago. People are working longer hours and are available 24/7 through mobiles and computers. Wages have stagnated and most will not receive extra pay for the extra hours. How can we possibly be less productive?

Why can't we focus on well being for all and recognise that happiness isn't found in accumulating stuff?

Aaah my type of people. I feel really upset about the environment and even sadder when others appear not to care. I've sort of trained DH to recycle and be more considerate about not buying loads of STUFF but ILs are pretty oblivious to it all.

I hope it can become mainstream, caring for the planet. Remember all the Hoo ha in the 90s about CFCs? People did get on board with that

FallenMadonna, I totally agree. And I think the emphasis with production should be on increasing the production of things we actually need in this country (like food), instead of having the ridiculous situation where we are having to import a lot of the food we eat. Although, also, what we need and what we actually eat are two different things. When you look at current obesity figures, some of us are consuming far more than we need foodwise. And yet others barely have enough (although nothing like as bad as in some countries).

Yes Fallen. It's dysfunctional.

Productivity is hampered by people working long hours for little gain in output. Investment in a new efficient system increases productivity. Throwing a lot of low paid people at an economy is a good way to dampen productivity.

Having said that as a mother of teenagers I welcome the job opportunities they have (in our nearest city) compared to for example France with higher productivity. In France it's harder to get rid of staff, staff work fewer hours generally so there is a great incentive to invest in technology hence on average each hour worked has a greater output.

My teenager is working alongside French staff right now here in UK. I'm a bit torn.

Expanding this thread slightly, what do people think about the constant drive for economic growth and increased productivity?

Yup, I fully agree with you. It's very similar to a ponzi scheme where we have to keep some kind of illusion of growth/productivity otherwise the whole economy/society will collapse.

As for being "less productive", that's based on the whole country, not individuals. As individuals, I think most of us are more productive in terms of our only isolated jobs, i.e. we do more, work longer hours, etc. But, as a country, our "output" isn't higher, i.e. the sum total of what we produce/do. I think that's because of the vast increase in administrative/supervision jobs which don't actually produce anything tangible.

I.e. I know it's a joke, but there's a lot of truth in the one man digging a hole surrounded by 5 more watching him. But even before then, another couple in a van will have put the cones and road signs out. Later in the day, the grabber wagon will come to take away the spoil. Then probably next day, a team will come to tarmac over the hole again. And so it goes on. A job that could have been done by a couple of blokes a couple of decades ago, in a couple of hours, could now involve a dozen people, several vehicles and a few days.

Aaah my type of people. I feel really upset about the environment and even sadder when others appear not to care. I've sort of trained DH to recycle and be more considerate about not buying loads of STUFF but ILs are pretty oblivious to it all.

What annoys me are the people who take the moral highground by recycling everything and expecting brownie points for doing so. They'd do far more good if they just didn't buy the crap in the first place. Reducing consumption and buying stuff without packaging in the first place would be a hell of a lot better. I think all the emphasis on recycling is actually giving the wrong message - and that people who have overflowing recycling bins are the problem, not the solution.

I agree and try my best. One of my failings used to be buying endless books about decluttering and anti-consumerism, but the irony came through in the end.
I've found that if Ishop on foot, I am very unlikely to buy large quantities of bottled water (or cola, lemonade ...) the effort involved makes me think twice about what we really need or want.

SoMuch, the food issue worries me too. Why do we need to import lamb, when we have acres and acres of land in the UK which is suitable for raising sheep? Is there any point in sending the fish we catch in our waters elsewhere and importing other types of fish because of our taste preferences? Perhaps I would like the fish we export. How would I know if I'm not given the opportunity to taste it?

And don't get me started about the idiocy of catching prawns here and then transporting them as far away as Indonesia for processing before being brought back here for sale.

Let's make ourselves more self sustainable. We have a green and pleasant land here. Let's put it to good use and reconnect to where food actually comes from. I try to grow some of my own vegetables and fruit, but not nearly enough. I'm not suggesting everyone should do that, but a greater understanding of food production is something that would benefit us all.

TaylorTinker, we do need job opportunities for the youngsters. What is going to happen when automation hits us big time? We need to sort ourselves out now, before that happens. If we think things are crazy now, we should prepare ourselves for even more craziness.

@fishinthesink so sorry, missed that from looking at their website.
And it is, of course, important that girls are educated because it's their human right, not because we want them to behave in a particular way.
Absolutely...lower fertility is a good side effect, not the main aim. Along with wanting to increase life expectancy in poorer countries and to reduce economic inequality. Everyone should have a right to the same expectations of years lived, education, opportunity and standard of living, it's what we should work towards as basic human rights but it should also have the effect of decreasing population growth

fallenmaddonna without getting too tinfoil hatted, I think it's a way of controlling us, stuff being the opiate of today's masses...
Technology was meant to save us time and free us up, but the powers that be have used it to squeeze more work and profits out of their workers - 9-5 jobs are getting fewer and fewer, we're expected to be always on.

The world's richest 8 people own more than the worlds 50% poorest, their power and influence is immense. Look at Apple, isn't it now the world's richest company? Because it's manged to persuade us that we NEED iPhones and we need to upgrade them every year. That's what successful people do. While there's such massive inequality, there'll always be a striving for growth as the world's richest encourage it to get more for themselves. And the affluent lifestyle is dangled in front of the rest of us in the media to encourage us to spend - so everyone feels like they should have a new iPhone every year; disposable clothes so you're not seen in the same outfit twice and holidays abroad at least once a year. Obviously - this isn't what the world's very poorest desire, they just want to survive. But income inequality in this country is huge compared to some other rich countries and I'd hazard a guess that we're more consumerist as a result because the poorer people in this country feel like they should be able to keep up. And there's a sense of failure if you can't

It's so important that the voices of us trying to reject the message are heard, we're pretty much drowned out by the consumerism we're bombarded with, but more visibility may encourage others to join in

FallenMadonna, it's really worrying that so much has changed in 70 or so years. In wartime Britain, we were able to feed our population from what we produced. It wasn't easy, and there wasn't a lot to go round, but it was doable. That could never happen now. People who lived through the war must despair of the waste we create these days.

The things I do to help are buy from my local shops, buy British where possible, and eat as seasonally as I can. For example, my local greengrocers sells a wide range of British produce, and much of it is grown very locally, and sold loose. I also buy local free range eggs there (and take the boxes back for refilling). Similarly the local butchers sells mostly British and frequently locally produced meat. Sausages, burgers etc are made on the premises and not packaged.

I can understand why we might import some items that we can't grow because of our climate, but the idea of importing things like asparagus from Peru just because we can't wait until the British asparagus season seems mad!

@GoGoGazelle Faith in Nature do mahousive bottles but I can't see anything on their site about recycling

I agree with pp saying that people buying the plastic tat and then being proud of their recycling bins are a problem

Re the economy yes it is a pyramid scheme
I can't believe the takeaway coffee thing is such a huge industry, sorry I know I said it before but it's just mad

I had no idea about prawns being farmed here and then being sent for processing. That's bonkers.

Btw why do so many people buy those big packs of bottled water?

Another George Monbiot article from last week .

It reminds me of a cartoon I saw years ago in a school textbook - "We need to consume, so we can have jobs producing goods for consumption." And the Onion article along the lines of "Chinese factory worker can't believe the amount of crap that Americans buy."

Anyway this thread has some good tips and makes a pleasant change from some of the remarks I've seen on other threads when there are such gems as "no-one cares what the treehuggers think" (re. flying to the US for a school ski trip) or people saying they drive one minute to school because they want to and it's nobody else's business.

I feel guilty about the sheer amount of stuff my children have, some second hand but a lot new, including cheap plastic party gifts that fall apart in five minutes. DH used to like taking them to Poundworld as he said it was cheap entertainment. I have told him to stop now.

I have recently been reading about Giving What You Can - people making a public pledge to give a certain percentage of their income to charities (mostly ones that improve the lives of people in the developing world, such as by providing mosquito nets). Whilst this won't be achievable for everyone, think how much good the money that people spend on stuff they don't really want or need, or on upgrading their phone every five minutes, could do if it was put towards something that could really help people instead.

Btw why do so many people buy those big packs of bottled water?

Bottled water is really the one thing that SURELY we can all just STOP!!!

I recently got a SodaStream and it's amazing. I was buying bottled sparkling water (hangs head in shame) and now the only plastic we have is from food waste, which I'd love to stomp out entirely.

What annoys me are the people who take the moral highground by recycling everything and expecting brownie points for doing so. They'd do far more good if they just didn't buy the crap in the first place.

I TOTALLY AGREE!!!

And by the way, here in the London borough of Hammersmith & Fulham, I am not convinced they're recycling at all. Sadly, I see them throw the recycling and garbage bags in the same compartment of the truck.

I have a feeling that our current recycling setup in London is way, way to user-friendly - how on earth can they sort it all? I'm sure it goes through some kind of automated process, but how? Does anyone know?