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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To lend money to this project manager?

112 replies

HagueBlue · 23/11/2017 10:01

I feel I need to give the obligatory disclaimer - am a regular but have name changed for this. I'm also going to mention specific amounts of money as it might help people give me advice but I know how that usually goes down on here. Let's see anyway...

Oh, and in AIBU as it's a bit property, a bit legal and a bit financial so wasn't sure where to put it.

Here goes. I'll try to be brief:

  • We started an extension in July. We're using a project manager who subcontracts the work out to a builder. We paid him a deposit which he passed on to Builder1. Builder1 did a runner with the money. He therefore got in Builder2, who has been great so far.
  • We're very nearly at the end of the project, probably 2.5 weeks to go. PM comes to us and says he can't get the money back from Builder1 so can't pay Builder2 for the rest of the work. If he can't pay Builder2 by Friday he'll down tools and go off to another job.
  • He therefore asked if we could loan him the money to finish the job, and he'd pay us back when he's got it back from Builder1, or more likely when he's got another project which he can collect a deposit from.
  • If we didn't loan him the money, then our project would have to be finished by someone else at a later date, probably well into next year.
  • The amount we would need to lend him is £12,500. The total project was originally meant to cost £72K, so it's a significant increase on top of what we've already paid him.
  • We can just about afford it but that is money that was put aside for other jobs around the house so we'd be living in an unfinished house for longer than planned. We'd at least have a working kitchen though.
  • We've lived in the house throughout the project (apart from a week at half-term), and living on a building site is starting to affect my mental state. I'm eating pretty unhealthily so have put on weight, can't have people round, dust and mess everywhere etc etc. I recognise that in the short-term, time shouldn't really be a major factor as we'll be living here for at least 10-15 years, but the sooner we can get the job finished, the better.
  • We've done a rough estimate and think that if we end up having to get someone new in to finish the remaining jobs (some of which is making good the damage caused by this project), it would cost quite a bit more than the £12.5K, and would take much much longer. We like and trust Builder2 to finish the job to a good standard (as long as he's paid by PM of course).
  • In the PM's defence, he was very apologetic and embarrassed by the situation but said he had no option but to ask us for help.

So the questions are:

  • Would you lend him the money if you could?
  • We'd obviously want something in writing (for what it's worth). Is there any form of contract or loan agreement that would protect us further down the line?

Gosh, these posts are always longer than you think! Really appreciate any advice / opinions on this - I'd normally speak to my parents but don't want to worry them at the moment...

OP posts:
BrioAmio · 25/11/2017 11:47

Money Claims Online and start the process to get a CCJ against him, don’t wait for him to pay from the next job, he’s robbing Peter to pay Paul, your £12.5k probably paid the last job he owed money on.

Once you have the CCJ I would name and shame, if people had done that to our PM we wouldn’t be in this pickle, as it was every person they ripped off assumed it was bad luck as they appeared so respectable.

HagueBlue · 25/11/2017 13:30

Brio I suspect that's exactly what's happened.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. We have given a definite timeframe for repayment so that this doesn't drag on. We've also outlined exactly what will happen if it's not resolved (thanks whatthefox - I like your style!). He's agreed to it all, and everything is in writing.

Of course I'm highly sceptical about this next job which he's banking on getting - we've resigned ourselves to having to follow through on our threats. That'll be a fun way to start 2018 Hmm

I'm just fortunate that my work involves having difficult / unpleasant conversations so communicating all of this to him hasn't phased me too much. DH however is a people-pleaser and was a sweaty wreck just listening to our last call where I had to be very frank and say no in about 7 different ways. Said he didn't realise I had nerves of steel! Grin He is also very trusting and would have been willing to give PM the money - just imagine! Thank you all for helping us to see sense...

OP posts:
Puzzledandpissedoff · 25/11/2017 13:50

So can I ask what he's actually agreed to do?

HagueBlue · 25/11/2017 14:03

He will pay us the cost that we incur for the remaining work by B2. He will also repay us the full cost of the worktops. He will do all of this by the agreed date (Jan 31st 2018). On the phone when asked to confirm payment by the exact date, he said he would 'endeavour' and 'try his best', (which I pointed out was meaningless to us), but has now confirmed in writing.

OP posts:
CremeFresh · 25/11/2017 14:16

'Lend them your ears but not your money' as the saying goes.

Hope it all works out for you.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 25/11/2017 14:49

He will pay us the cost that we incur for the remaining work by B2. He will also repay us the full cost of the worktops (by 31st January)

On the phone ... he said he would 'endeavour' and 'try his best' ... but has now confirmed in writing

My heart wishes you only the very best with getting him to pay, and my head says "no chance". I very much suspect he's simply buying time and that, come January, he'll move the goalposts to the end of the tax year or whenever, or even that he's hoping to prise more cash out of you once you've simmered down. This is, however, one of those times when I really, really hope I'll be proved wrong

In the meantime I can only suggest that, no matter how credible the story, you don't hand him any more money at all

ForgivenessIsDivine · 25/11/2017 14:53

You need to ask the PM to account for all of the money you have paid him.

He should never use one job to pay for another.

If you have paid all of the money you were due to pay and he has not paid that to builder 2 and he has run out of money, you will need to pay for everything from here on in and work out how to get your money back from the PM.

Get Builder 2 to give you a full account of what he has been paid and how much he will need to finish the job.

Give the PM one week to replay everything he owes... start court proceedings to get the rest back,

RockNRollNerd · 25/11/2017 15:59

If you need help to understand what's happening and reassure yourself that the PM is definitely ripping you off take a look at The Fraud Triangle, he fits it perfectly:

  • Financial pressure/need - he has clearly lost control of his finances, he has to have the money to pay sub-contractors and doesn't have it
  • Opportunity - that's you, a client desperate for a project to be finished, especially in time for Christmas as he knows you won't want a building site drifting dust onto your decs and turkey
  • Rationalisation - you've got money clearly as you are forking out for an extension so you can probably afford it, it's not a risk - he knows that if he can sort himself out of this current short term problem it will all come good and he'll be back on an even keel. Also he can't afford for anyone to know as then the referrals will dry up and he'll never get out of this mess.

Please start proceedings now to recover your money - the guy is in deep and won't come through with the cash - the longer you leave it the more chance there is he'll have nothing to repay you with and will just declare bankruptcy.

The general rule of thumb with fraudsters (which is what this guy is) is that 10% of the population would never commit a fraud, 10% will whenever they get the chance and the other 80% could go either way (basically they'll commit fraud if they fit the triangle - the need/pressure bit is what tips them into it). Your PM is quite likely to be in the 80% and not an out and out bad guy who just went into project management to rip people off as a career choice, but that doesn't excuse what he's doing - he's ripped you off and you must protect yourself.

RockNRollNerd · 25/11/2017 16:00

Sorry - should have said - the comments I made about Opportunity and Rationalisation are from the PMs perspective - they're how he will be seeing the situation even if it's just subconscious. He probably doesn't even think of what he's doing as fraud...

Hauntedlobster · 25/11/2017 19:19

Come on people RTFT

whiskyowl · 27/11/2017 09:56

Can I just say how bloody impressive you are hagueblue. You're handled this brilliantly. And great advice from whatthefox too. Talk about girl power!

NoSquirrels · 27/11/2017 11:00

Well done hague - I am so relieved you got past the emotional response and went into rational mode. Good stuff.

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