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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To lend money to this project manager?

112 replies

HagueBlue · 23/11/2017 10:01

I feel I need to give the obligatory disclaimer - am a regular but have name changed for this. I'm also going to mention specific amounts of money as it might help people give me advice but I know how that usually goes down on here. Let's see anyway...

Oh, and in AIBU as it's a bit property, a bit legal and a bit financial so wasn't sure where to put it.

Here goes. I'll try to be brief:

  • We started an extension in July. We're using a project manager who subcontracts the work out to a builder. We paid him a deposit which he passed on to Builder1. Builder1 did a runner with the money. He therefore got in Builder2, who has been great so far.
  • We're very nearly at the end of the project, probably 2.5 weeks to go. PM comes to us and says he can't get the money back from Builder1 so can't pay Builder2 for the rest of the work. If he can't pay Builder2 by Friday he'll down tools and go off to another job.
  • He therefore asked if we could loan him the money to finish the job, and he'd pay us back when he's got it back from Builder1, or more likely when he's got another project which he can collect a deposit from.
  • If we didn't loan him the money, then our project would have to be finished by someone else at a later date, probably well into next year.
  • The amount we would need to lend him is £12,500. The total project was originally meant to cost £72K, so it's a significant increase on top of what we've already paid him.
  • We can just about afford it but that is money that was put aside for other jobs around the house so we'd be living in an unfinished house for longer than planned. We'd at least have a working kitchen though.
  • We've lived in the house throughout the project (apart from a week at half-term), and living on a building site is starting to affect my mental state. I'm eating pretty unhealthily so have put on weight, can't have people round, dust and mess everywhere etc etc. I recognise that in the short-term, time shouldn't really be a major factor as we'll be living here for at least 10-15 years, but the sooner we can get the job finished, the better.
  • We've done a rough estimate and think that if we end up having to get someone new in to finish the remaining jobs (some of which is making good the damage caused by this project), it would cost quite a bit more than the £12.5K, and would take much much longer. We like and trust Builder2 to finish the job to a good standard (as long as he's paid by PM of course).
  • In the PM's defence, he was very apologetic and embarrassed by the situation but said he had no option but to ask us for help.

So the questions are:

  • Would you lend him the money if you could?
  • We'd obviously want something in writing (for what it's worth). Is there any form of contract or loan agreement that would protect us further down the line?

Gosh, these posts are always longer than you think! Really appreciate any advice / opinions on this - I'd normally speak to my parents but don't want to worry them at the moment...

OP posts:
Swizzlesticks23 · 23/11/2017 12:10

Paying the builder directly isn't an option either as your still paying more out. It's between the PM and builder to sort out.

Don't pay anything more !

NoSquirrels · 23/11/2017 12:20

Ask for a meeting/call with both the PM and Builder 2.

If we pay the PM then we'd get our kitchen finished and in theory, get the money back eventually. If we pay Builder2 directly then we'll never see it again.

You have absolutely NO guarantees you'll "get the money back eventually" from the PM.

I'd want to see evidence of a court order in small claims before anything else.

How do you know that Builder 1 really did a runner with that money? Isn't it at least plausible that actually PM used that money to repay another client/builders he previously owed money to...

HagueBlue · 23/11/2017 13:40

Nosquirrels you could be right, he could have been playing this game for a while, relying on one job’s deposit to pay for the previous one. He’d be in an endless loop. But as long as I get my money when his next job starts, it doesn’t matter to me where it comes from (as long as it’s not someone I know!) He mentioned a while ago that he had a big commercial job that was delayed for Brexit-related reasons, so he was probably banking on that to cover ours. Hopefully this makes him realise that his business model is severely flawed.

I actually don’t know how much Builder2 knows about all this.** I’ll find out. I definitely want to stay on good terms with him so he realises it’s not our fault and comes back to finish the job!!

OP posts:
LondonGal76 · 23/11/2017 13:41

Hi OP, I had a big building project carried out last year, and I'm surprised you're being asked to pay upfront. Apart from the initial 5% deposit, our payments were made to the builder only once our architect validated that a certain % of work had been completed, and we only had to pay the final 5% once all snagging had been finished. We used standard JCT contracts. I'm just bringing this up because it seems very trusting to pay before the final works are carried out - what's your bargaining chip to make sure the work is carried out to the standard (and timeframe) you want? And why did your project manager structure payments this way? Aside from what builder 1 did, I don't think your PM has worked in your interests here. If you do decide to pay builder 2, and then chase the project manager for the missing money, I'd suggest you sign a contract with builder 2 and put a payment plan in place where you're at least holding back some money for snagging. I think the JCT contracts are downloadable online and pretty straightforward (ie You could do it tonight). Someone with more industry knowledge may be able to help more though. This is just based on my experience.

DJBaggySmalls · 23/11/2017 13:41

Contact Trading Standards; this is precisely how a project manager should not treat the customer.

JaniceBattersby · 23/11/2017 13:46

Absolutely no way.

Building work aside, he simply wants a loan for a bill he can’t pay. Why on earth should you provide that loan? He could go to a bank, to family, friends or, well, anyone who isn’t a client.

He sounds like he’s a bit fly-by-night.

bookgirl1982 · 23/11/2017 14:43

What was the pms fee? I'd be tempted to pay to get it done, but deduct his fee from the balance. Then at least he has some incentive to pursue builder 1.

The cynic in me thinks he is in cahoots with the first builder.

mickeysminnie · 23/11/2017 15:48

Tell the PM that on legal advice you will not 'lend' him money. And if your project is not completed on time you will be taking him to court.
As others have said. It sounds very like a scam.

Gemini69 · 23/11/2017 15:52

I agree..... it's a SCAM.. especially this time of year... are you paying for his Christmas OP Flowers

NoSquirrels · 23/11/2017 15:54

And as you know, OP, the very best & most successful scam artists are a) believable b) have a GREAT convincing cover/backstory set up c) know what motivates the "mark" (a finished house before Christmas) and d) spend a long time setting up their scam & being reliable before they "ask".

Usually people who GET scammed have doubts but go along with it because of c) & d). Then later admit they knew it was off.

Don't do it. I feel sure you'd regret it.

If he is legit, a £12K loan could come from anywhere - you should have been his absolute last resort, and if you really are, then you'll never see that money again.

IamtheDevilsAvocado · 23/11/2017 16:04

Absolutely no!

You won't see money again...

Don't let it be an emotional decision... O know how crap it is living in building works!

12.5 k is shed loads to lose!

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/11/2017 16:56

I realise that on paper it looks like the perfect scam

You're right, it does ... and how odd that it's happened just when you're in the last weeks of a project you're anxious to get finished, and just before Christmas Hmm

You've paid someone to manage your project, so his trying to put this onto you was a major red flag in the first place; like others, I'm afraid I'd be wondering what the circumstances really were around the "disappearance" of the money/first builder

Swizzlesticks23 · 23/11/2017 17:24

I'm also baffled why he has paid this builder number 1 upfront then builder number 2 part way into the job ?

Deux · 23/11/2017 17:25

I'm confused by all of this. Who is your contract with? It sounds like your contract is with the PM? You shouldn't have paid more than £3.5k up front to Builder 1.

I would have thought your contract should have been with the builder and you pay the PM fees separately. At least that's how we've always done it.

It sounds really complex and I think some legal advice would be wise. Don't pay out any more to the PM. He's already shown he cannot be trusted. And it does sound like a robbing Peter to pay Paul situation as the PM has a serious cash flow problem.

OlennasWimple · 23/11/2017 17:38

PM will still owe you the lost deposit from Builder 1, surely? Even if in practice he is unlikely to get it back from Builder 1, he needs to find a way for his business to reimburse you

BrandNewHouse · 23/11/2017 18:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hauntedlobster · 23/11/2017 18:08

Scam, don’t lend him a penny

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/11/2017 18:24

BrandNewHouse Regarding "the steps he's taken to secure the money", OP said "he mentioned taking Builder1 to court ... But I don't get the impression he's started any formal proceedings"

So it doesn't sound as if he's terribly bothered - but then, if OP's prepared to make up the shortfall there's no real reason why he would be

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/11/2017 18:28

I've paid PM nearly ALL the money owed, bar about £2K

Can I ask why this is? Isn't it more usual, on such a large project, to keep back a significant amount until the job's done and is seen to be satisfactory?

Musicalmistress · 23/11/2017 18:30

Do not give him the money! You’ll have no guarantee that he’ll get it from B1 therefore you could be substantially out of pocket for some time (or never get it back at all!). PM should have insurance for these circumstances

Musicalmistress · 23/11/2017 18:32

#should say dad is in building trade and often manages projects - he mentioned the insurance

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/11/2017 18:38

PM should have insurance for these circumstances

Indeed Hmm

Makes you wonder what else he might have been cutting corners on, doesn't it?

HagueBlue · 23/11/2017 18:52

Thanks so much all, it’s really helpful to hear your views. Unsurprisingly it’s unanimous that we shouldn’t pay PM a penny more than we owe him. (Our contract is with the PM, he’s then subcontracted the entire job to the builder).

Logically I know that everything you’ve said is correct, but also recognise that I can’t be completely dispassionate, because we’re talking about the roof over our heads and I have two young children who are also enduring this. Put simply, we’re idiots and deserve to be parted with our money. There’s no other way to say it.

But before we do anything, we’ve asked PM for proof of his home address, a copy of his passport, and a summary of what steps he’s taken to get the deposit back from B1.

I’ve also been put in touch with a property solicitor so will hopefully be able get a call in tonight / tomorrow morning to get a steer. I’ve drafted an agreement that specifies the terms of the personal loan, completely separate from the building project, so will get her opinion on how watertight that is as well.

I’ll let you know how it plays out. IF we end up giving him the money, either I come back in a couple of weeks and say ‘you were all right to be cynical, he’s done a runner’ or ‘he’s paid us in full, hasn’t this restored your faith in humanity’. It’s win-win for you!*

*note my forced attempt at levity doesn’t appear to be helping my blood pressure...

OP posts:
Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/11/2017 19:45

Getting advice from a property solicitor sounds wise, but it hardly matters what any potential loan agreement says ... if he doesn't have the money he won't be paying you back

And if he had the money he'd have presumably used it to cover the Builder 2's costs while pursuing Builder 1 Hmm

Anatidae · 23/11/2017 19:54

Do NOT lend him the money. Just don’t.

Check the insurance you have to see if it covers the rest of the work.

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