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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not really know what 'cis' means?

327 replies

BinarySearchTree · 23/11/2017 01:16

I mean, of course I've looked it up, and I nod along whenever anyone describes me as cis.

But I don't really know what it means. I am a woman. I experience the world as a woman. I look like a woman and I am happy to be described as a woman. I could not be described as a tomboy. I support women's rights and equality.

But I wouldn't say I 'identify' with the female gender. I find it quite constraining and oppressive. But I would say I am a woman. Am I cis? Am I not? I don't understand!

OP posts:
MaryMaryQuiteLovely · 23/11/2017 19:34

I know that many young girls are transitioning now. But before the trans trend happened, what was the rate of FtT, does anyone know? are there any stats available? Because anecdotally I had never heard of it. But transsexuals, transvestites and drag keen were very well known of and often in culture/art

PumpkinSquash · 23/11/2017 19:39

Do you know, I honestly don't give a toss if I am called transphobic. It's not a big deal. It's simply a few letters strung together by a group of people who think it is the height of intelligence to screech NoDebate when challenged.
#NoDebate? Really? Is that a thing? As I've seen it a couple of times on the threads on here today. Because it bloody IS a debate if you're dragging me into it and re-naming me!
Nothing to do with being transphobic, I'm not, you can call yourself whatever the hell you like. Totally ignoring others wishes and refusing to see them as actual women is so insulting, not to mention hypocritical as you're the ones insistent of being able to identify as you like.
I'm a woman. Not a cis woman.

ThePinkOcelot · 23/11/2017 19:40

WTF?! What a load of bollocks!!

MaryMaryQuiteLovely · 23/11/2017 19:40

queens.....

PumpkinSquash · 23/11/2017 19:43

WTF?! What a load of bollocks!!

Yeah, that's about it in a nutshell! Grin

Datun · 23/11/2017 19:47

whoputthecatout

Do you know, I honestly don't give a toss if I am called transphobic. It's not a big deal. It's simply a few letters strung together by a group of people who think it is the height of intelligence to screech NoDebate when challenged.

That’s because you’re a sensible woman.

Unfortunately being accused of transphobia is like being called a paedophile at the moment.

When you have nothing to lose, you can think it is absolute bollocks.

Which it is, obvs.

But people are afraid of their jobs, afraid of their social circles’ vilification, afraid of their tenure at university and at work, purely on the basis of being called transphobic.

You, me, and many gender critical women may well think it’s nonsensical. But there are very many people who don’t.

And that Is how it has acquired extraordinary power.

QuentinSummers · 23/11/2017 20:06

@d4geekinderby your post on page 6 was brilliant, thank you Flowers

Albadross · 23/11/2017 20:11

Someone who isn't transsexual is simply male or female.

ALittleBitOfButter · 23/11/2017 20:45

My concern is that the term 'cis' has been specifically used to refer to 'cisprivilege'. From reading transactivist tracts, 'cisprivilege' is mentioned frequently, and posits women and their biology as privileged over transwomen.

However, transwomen have used their male privilege to leverage themselves as the chief victims of the patriarchy, because they don't conform to a womanly ideal. It's all quite regressive.

Therefore we have the situation where allies (lib fems and organisations like WEP) humbly 'acknowledge' that trans people are the real victims of sexism, male objectification (by failing to be objectified!) and male violence. These people need to step back and see the irony of men muscling themselves in to negate the reality of women's sex/reproductive based oppression.

To be able to do that, allies need to understand that the real problem is the widening of the definition of 'trans'. Allies defend trans because they are so vulnerable, without seeing that the widening of the definition has allowed the pornsick, the misogynists, the womanface sexual fetishists, the white middle class men who just want to dominate activist spheres by claiming cadence and authority through victimhood.

However the cultish behaviour as beautifully analysed above prevents any analysis of the changing definition of 'trans'. So men remain at the top, trans men (women who have transitioned) rush to say they have male privilege, so called feminists run a website without any reference to reproductive biology (Everyday Feminism), and so forth.

'Cisprivilege' and tropes such as 'die cis scum' and 'cisheteronormative' are dog whistle words that no one wants to fall foul of.

Datun · 23/11/2017 20:51

Cisprivilege

Not only does cis privilege extend to women. It can take some bizarre representation. Women being objectified, catcalled, harassed, etc.

It also extends to women’s problems due to their biology. I have seen abortion called cis privilege, and even, miscarriage.

Transactivism is fairly sick, to be honest.

DianaPrincessOfThemyscira · 23/11/2017 20:59

It means shut up woman, I’m a man and I woman better than you ever will do I claim the word woman and you can have cis.

kinkajoukid · 23/11/2017 21:05

Flowerpot1234 - have you come across Alex Drummond, the transwoman who kept the beard. She claims to be "broadening the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman"

Olennas wow that really fucking takes the biscuit doesn't. The fucking cheek of it. I can't even bring myself to type the equivalent insulting scenario involving race as it is so insulting.

ALittleBitOfButter · 23/11/2017 21:06

Absolutely Datun

It's worth analysing 'die cis scum' which is apparently something trans women are allowed to say with impunity, This is part of the new reality of identity politics, where the oppressed are allowed to be angry but the privileged (usually white feminists, but also 'cis women') are not allowed to be. The marginalised are allowed to speak, to dominate, to lead (authoritarianly), to dismiss, to belittle, to 'call out' (ugh!) over other people within the collective. I have observed transwomen colluding with women of non-European backgrounds to belittle and dominate.

In effect, an activist collective is no longer a collective where things can be debated in a reasoned manner. Now it is about saying the right thing, walking on eggshells, being paranoid that your words might be misconstrued (just as Lindsay Shepherd the tutor experienced), and worrying about offending or 'triggering' the oppressed.

It is interesting that we must listen to the voice of the oppressed, but in reality (!) only the transactivist nuttery is allowed. When we say we want to listen to Miranda Yardley and all of the invoked transwomen who 'just keep their heads down and want to get on with their lives', there is silence. We are not allowed to listen to THOSE transwomen. I have never yet observed a discussion or a reasoned response to this by transactivists/allies. Obviously the allies are too frightened to address this or they may be cast out as a witch too.

Therefore the problem, in my view, is actually that transactivists are male bullies using the same old tactics to dominate, to gaslight. The recent comments saying that the suicide tactic is just like a man forcing a woman's will in an abusive relationship is apt, in my opinion.

So back to 'die cis scum'. I've been an activist all my adult life and I can't actually remember when we used the 'die...scum' thing. Perhaps 'die Tory scum'? Not very frequently if so, and I would have been at university. We don't even say 'die Nazi scum', which would probably be the most preferable target of a wish to visit death on a political enemy, although I don't agree with it personally. Scum, yes, have used that frequently. It's a common term on the left. But why people who 'identify' with the gender stereotypes visited upon their bodies become scum who need to die is puzzling.

OlennasWimple · 23/11/2017 21:26

Indeed, kinka, indeed

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2017 21:36

The Achilles Heel? I wish I knew.

You can't go head on at it on for starters. Doing so, only reinforces the sense of persecution. The community has been conditioned to expect hostility and the perception and expectations is that they will get it. This is why many are ultra defensive and take attacks personally.

I think this has been the approach that has been used and its not working and won't work. It needs something of a total rethink.

I think there a few steps that need to be taken to do that and come up with a cohesive strategy. Off the top of my head I think this is what springs to mind first but I might have some additional thoughts later.

  1. Step back and understand what you are up against first. Start picking apart language to learn about how propaganda is being used to make an argument, particularly where no argument actually exists. I think doing this will help enormously.

If you know what they are doing and why they are doing it you can respond without falling into certain traps. (I think two to avoid are mental health and calling people stupid in any way or shape)

Understand how they want to frame you and how they have anticipated that they will be represented and challenged.

Look up how cults work. Look up how people are deprogrammed from cults. www.culteducation.com/group/1280-group/26433-history-of-deprogramming.html I think there are some very useful comments in this that can be developed and expanded upon. The essence is to get people thinking again. To find a key point, and if it hits home to push it on that.

  1. Present TRAs for what it is. Authoritarian and tightly controlling. .

I think a lot of support for the trans agenda comes from the fallacy that it is pushing a progressive agenda.

People who are progressive hate the idea that they are being controlled. Make people look at this idea of a cult somehow.

I think this needs to be done in a much more concise way than I've managed so far, but I think it can be refined.

Repeat back the language and explain why and how it is being used to control. Show that those leading the Trans Agenda are being controlling and that those who repeat it are being controlled.

Think about how well 'strong and stable' repeated over and over and over went down.

Make a very clear distinction between the interests and rights of trans people and the methods of trans politics. Separate the two better. Instead link it to wider politics and the nature of populism in general to put it into a different context.

Don't make it about left and right politics, as this strengthens the culture war being drawn along these lines. Its not. Its about liberal and authoritarian politics.

Remember the argument isn't about logic primarily. Its about identity and how individuals identify as trans or as sympathetic to being trans.

Owen Jones has bloody brilliant in showing this up. He identifies with it because of the fight for homophobia. Don't argue with this. But pick it apart for fallacy based on values not logic primarily.

Logic comes into it, but this is for a different audience.

  1. Stop playing their game. Its not about them versus us. At the moment the trans narrative is all about being the persecuted.

Don't fuel it. Don't get angry. (Easier said than done!). They want to wind you up.

Recognise that not all those who identify as trans are driving this. Many will be passengers and hostages to it. And are effectively victims to it every bit as much as any woman.

Recognise and identify ways in which harm to individuals who are trans might occur due to the ways the politics are being carried out.

Point out that the Trans Agenda isn't always in the best interest of those who identify as trans.

  1. Controlling the narrative. Every battle in politics is about being able to lead the conversation. Normally the driving force in this will have the upper hand. See 3 - in how you stop playing their game.

If you want to change the direction of politics you have to grasp control of the narrative, by presenting the story in a very different way to the way it has been presented before.

You need to build an alternative answer to what the ultimate goal is for rights.

Don't get bogged down in toilets. Its not just about toilets (or similar idea). Why? The toilet story, is safe territory for TRAs. They have every answer and know it inside out. It is part of the debate, but its not the only debate. Expand what is talked about. Understand that TRAs want the argument to be on the same ground, over and over again.

Identify groups / stories of those who have an interest in the GRAs in different ways and tell a different story. It expands the narrative even if it doesn't change it. The point is to get people thinking in as many different ways as possible.

Demonstrate you are thinking about their interest in ways that others might not have thought of and been presented to them. Show that you are on side, but think there are better ways to go.

Work out what they really don't want to talk about most, and why.

Turn things around a bit too, and go right back to basic over what questions you ask. It can be disarming and might reveal more than you think. Eg: Ask someone who isn't trans why they support x or y.

Overall: I think the basic premise here is to understand how they are communicating their message to different audiences and why they are using those particular messages. A lot of it is media management skills.

My gut reaction is to say that the feminist movement has got caught in something of a rut over this and isn't thinking about this as well as TRAs. I think things can be done to get better at this, and side step the transphobia accusation, but it requires smarter thinking, and thinking about things in different ways.

Its not an easy thing to do.

whoputthecatout · 23/11/2017 21:38

*You, me, and many gender critical women may well think it’s nonsensical. But there are very many people who don’t.

And that Is how it has acquired extraordinary power.*

Sadly DATUN you are certainly right: so, it appears, that the people in power in the race to be the most progressive, virtuous (whatever) in the universe also allow themselves to be conned by these nutjobs.

Datun · 24/11/2017 00:01

RedToothBrush

How do we communicate the problem using those strategies to the powers that be. In parliament say?

Talking one-on-one to activists or allies is fairly pointless. It’s like banging your head against a brick wall.

It’s also not going to bring anything down any time soon. Because even if you change someone’s mind, it’s still picking off a minuscule part of the overall animal.

Pointing out the flaws in the logic and the ulterior motive, works with regular people. But it takes time. See the way it has gone on mumsnet, for instance. Far more people get it now, but it’s a slow process.

The list of five points that ‘A Woman’s Place’ proposed was quite good. They didn’t engage in the ideology, specifically, just wanted to strengthen and expand the exemptions that already exist within the gender recognition act.

It feels, to me, like a clever strategy. In that it is one of the few that actually offered a solution, rather than more arguing.

But in terms of addressing the problem as a cult, how can one alert anyone in power to that aspect of it?

Firefries · 24/11/2017 00:10

So do we have to clearly (or more clearly) label things these days?
I thought being female or woman meant well I was born biologically a girl.
Are we being told we have to say I'm a cis woman now?
What if I'm 36 years old, do I have to say I'm cis-36, because I was born 36 years ago and identify with being 36? What if I am 36 and identify as 18 (I actually still am in my head) - do I now say I'm undecided-18..?
Its a very serious question now. Do we have to relabel everything, in case people don't really know what's going on inside our heads?

kootoo123 · 24/11/2017 00:14

I think the idea of 'identifying with a gender' is stupid and oppressive. Its like saying ypur born female which means you should think feel and dress this way...if you do your gender is the same as you sec. Wtf.

I feel how i feel depending on the circumstances. I think sometimes my humour is more on the masculine side but im sure plenty of women have the same humour. I hate hugging love soppy films. Also love action films. I sometimes where dresses other times tracksuits.

I identify on the whole as human. I am a woman. Who the cunt gets to label me and try and erase the term woman. Im also a fucking pregnant WOMAN not person. ONLY women have the priveledge of being pregnant. Call me or my fellow sisters sis one more fucking time.....

kootoo123 · 24/11/2017 00:16

Cis even.

Adarajames · 24/11/2017 00:21

Every time i see or hear that revolting term, my brain screams IM NOT A CISWOMAN, IM A WOMAN, WHO HATES THAT FUCKING CIS TERM!! And bollox if that makes me transphobic, I couldn't give a fuck!

Oh and it's LGB as far as I'm concerned, the other letters can sort their own grouping because they aren't to do with sexuality so don't belong in the same one! Angry

PumpkinSquash · 24/11/2017 01:06

If a man wants to be a woman anyway, why would he be re-naming the entire sex of the people he wants to be in the first place, therefore alienating himself from them?You're a woman too, then, fine. So why not just say "woman" instead of further differing yourself?
Just reading back my post from earlier today and thinking. Is it because men transitioning to females know they aren't biologically female so feel a need to express the fact they're in some way different and this needs addressing? As surely from your point of view we're all female, so why the need to re-label?
The whole argument is bull crap.

PumpkinSquash · 24/11/2017 01:08

Are we being told we have to say I'm a cis woman now?
Nope, they can get lost with that, women are women, always will be.

AnachronisticCorpse · 24/11/2017 08:51

What I’ve never understood is that if TIMs consider themselves women, who have always been women, then what the actual Jeff are they transing from?

It’s all double think.

Datun · 24/11/2017 09:13

AnachronisticCorpse

It’s a masterclass in goalpost moving and everyone being able to have a different definition.

So they will say yes I’ve always been a woman in my head, and I’m now just bringing my body into alignment.

Excelt for those who have a lady penis and don’t want to alter their body. Because they don’t need to bring their body into alignment.

It’s like trying to catch mist.

Your subjective identity can be anything you like. It can change all the time. And if other people can’t keep up, they are the problem.

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