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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not really know what 'cis' means?

327 replies

BinarySearchTree · 23/11/2017 01:16

I mean, of course I've looked it up, and I nod along whenever anyone describes me as cis.

But I don't really know what it means. I am a woman. I experience the world as a woman. I look like a woman and I am happy to be described as a woman. I could not be described as a tomboy. I support women's rights and equality.

But I wouldn't say I 'identify' with the female gender. I find it quite constraining and oppressive. But I would say I am a woman. Am I cis? Am I not? I don't understand!

OP posts:
OlennasWimple · 23/11/2017 14:37

Flowerpot1234 - have you come across Alex Drummond, the transwoman who kept the beard. She claims to be "broadening the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman".

This was one of my first peak trans moments: if Alex had said that she wanted to broaden the bandwidth of what it means to be a man by wearing clothes traditionally associated with women, I'd would have lent my full support. Great. Gender stereotype disrupting is brilliant. Go Alex.

It's the fact that Alex has done nothing whatsoever except put on a dress and then try to claim this as some kind of amazing, brave addition to the sisterhood.... Nah, does not wash with me.

See also: Danielle Muscato (though TBF I've not see Alex posting the sort of deliberately offensive and inflammatory stuff that DM does)

PumpkinSquash · 23/11/2017 14:37

I was just wondering if a word is needed for people who don't belong to the group called transsexuals?

We already have two perfectly good ones.
Man
Woman.

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2017 14:42

Despite long posts and some kind of cult-leader status on some threads, your last post with a list of "warning signs", you neither gave indication of where this list came from or why it's applicable to you're argument.

Care to put some effort in to making this defensible and a little more academically rigorous?

I am passionate about critical thinking and encouraging others to do so at a time when its seemingly fallen out of favour.

That is all.

Funny, how I just got a reversal on the use of the word cult. Classic counter when struggling for an alternative rebuttal about the actual argument. I note it also focuses on me personally, over and above my argument, by suggesting I don't have one.

My academic point is this:
Trans Right Activist tactics use extraordinarily similar methods to cults. They have authoritarian tendencies and language. Again comparing to Orwell's 1984 as a well known example that people may be familiar with.

I ask people to look and compare and do their own research and make up their own minds rather than rely on me for a sole source.

Its easy to find and reputable. The above was an exercise in demonstrating just how well known and widely used these techniques are and how its fuck all to do with transphobia. More academic information on cults is out there.

As I say, all of this has got fuck all to do with being trans. Its about power and how you get that power. Its about the deliberate attempts to restrict of debate and scrutiny on this issue and how it is not happening in isolation but in wider politics which is damaging our society in a gigantic act of self harm.

A creeping authoritarianism which threatens everyone's rights and freedoms across the board, regardless of our gender, sex, age, colour or nationality.

If you want disagree, fair enough. I think there is enough there for people to consider for themselves on their own terms and with freedom.

ButchyRestingFace · 23/11/2017 14:45

See also: Danielle Muscato (though TBF I've not see Alex posting the sort of deliberately offensive and inflammatory stuff that DM does)

I'd rather not see him. Wasn't he tweeting from the inside of a women's refuge fairly recently?

cantStopTheRock · 23/11/2017 14:50

@RedToothBrush

I was after clarification as opposed to "an exercise".

Passion and knowledge are not equivalent.

Good luck.

Vixky · 23/11/2017 14:56

Cis means you are perfectly fine with the stereotypes associated with your sex. Something I would think, would be fairly rare. So its quite insulting to claim everyone bar a special few is 'cis'.

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2017 15:32

This fella Robert Jay Lifton is a well respected academic in psychiatrist and author. He had a particular interest in how ideological movements and organisations try to control the behaviour of others.

He wrote the book Reform and the Psychology of Totalism in 1953.

In it he defined 8 concepts that in combination can control the thoughts and beliefs of individuals:
Milieu Control.
Mystical Manipulation.
Demand for Purity.
Confession.
Sacred Science.
Loading the Language.
Doctrine over person.
Dispensing of existence

Extracts from Chapter 22 from the book can found here

Here is a list of well known and respected researcher of cults
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_study_of_new_religious_movements

I picked Robert Lifton from the list because he has a particular interest in political groups rather than religious. I'd say this was a good starting point for people looking for academic backup and 'appropriate' and 'satisfactory level of credibility' to what I'm saying. (Not that you necessarily need to go to these lengths, but I do suspect there are a couple of posters here, who will be interested in looking into this in some depth).

Wink

Removing the trans bit from the argument, and instead looking at how ideas are being pushed, I think unloads the accusation of transphobia. As I say, its part of a wider part and trend in politics and connected with popularism. The emergence of TRAs is merely one example of it, and in that context alone should raise eyebrows about 'why now?' in terms of why there has been an explosion of trans people in the absence of any other academic explanation.

We have been offered the explanation that its merely society merely becoming more liberal. What if its actually because society is becoming more illiberal?

I don't know myself. But its certainly raising some awkward questions in my mind that should be explored by brave people.

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2017 15:40

Robert Lifton describes - like Orwell before him - a 'thought-terminating cliché' which is a cliché used to quell cognitive dissonance. Its application is a means of dismissing dissent or justifying fallacious logic and is what makes it thought-terminating.

Examples you might be familiar with:
“Everything happens for a reason”
“Why? Because I said so”
“I’m the parent, that’s why”
“To each his own”
“It's a matter of opinion!”
“You only live once”

“We will have to agree to disagree”

Add "Transwomen are women" to the list.

sinceyouask · 23/11/2017 15:49

My god, you people are depressing.

Datun · 23/11/2017 15:51

sinceyouask

My god, you people are depressing.

Excellent work. More thought termination.

Go to the top of the class.

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2017 15:58

Datun Grin

I'm pretty cheered up this afternoon by this thread as it goes.

Plus I have salted caramel cake. Cake

sagamartha · 23/11/2017 15:59

I was just wondering if a word is needed for people who don't belong to the group called transsexuals

We already have two perfectly good ones
Man Woman

So transsexuals don't belong to the man or woman group?

SuburbanRhonda · 23/11/2017 15:59

OMG I have salted caramel cake too!

So I ate some melon afterwards to cancel it out.

BackBoiler · 23/11/2017 16:07

I think gender should be abolished. Too complicated and trying to put everything into a box. Just stick with sex for biological purposes and let everyone just get on with what they want to do.

Datun · 23/11/2017 16:08

sagamartha

So transsexuals don't belong to the man or woman group?

You do make me laugh. Genuinely.

You remind me of my youngest son.

Always giving me a problem for which the only solution is to be between the devil and the deep blue sea, or a rock and a hard place.

Datun · 23/11/2017 16:10

BackBoiler

I think gender should be abolished. Too complicated and trying to put everything into a box. Just stick with sex for biological purposes and let everyone just get on with what they want to do.

That’s radical feminism, that is.

DonkeySkin · 23/11/2017 16:13

Red, thanks for your informative posts on cults and mind control.

I've been having some thoughts lately on how the trans movement connects with what seems to be the re-emergence of an impulse towards totalitarianism on both the left and the right, but it's all a bit vague at the moment so I won't elaborate.

But the obvious disconnect from reality that current trans ideology requires from its adherents is very disturbing and primes people for a disconnect from reality across the political sphere.

Re: Lifton, I'd be interested in reading about how he defines 'Mystical manipulation'. Because it seems to me that the concept of people being 'born in the wrong body' is an example of that. How can any rational person accept the idea that children, or anyone, can be 'born in the wrong body'? How can a 'girl' entity be 'born' into the body of a male child?

I've seen a few feminists posit that transgenderism is the first stage in the coming transhumanist movement; by conceptually severing humans from our bio sex, we set the stage for humanity to 'transcend' biology altogether. In that light, the 'pregnant man' stuff and the elimination of the word 'mother' by midwives associations seems particularly pertinent, since humans belong to the class of animals whose very name, 'mammalia', refers to the fact that our young are suckled by their mother (from 'mamma', the Latin for 'breast').

And obviously you would have to believe that humans are something apart from other mammals, if you believe that we, uniquely, do not have mothers but 'birthing parents', and that human males can gestate and bear young. I actually think this is a big part of the appeal of transgender ideology to a lot of people: that in pretending that humans can transcend our bio sex, and exalting the mind as supreme over the body, it elevates humans above the mere animal - the same appeal was behind the gnostic Christian cults of the second century.

grasspigeons · 23/11/2017 16:13

I'm glad you asked this.

I still don't really understand to be honest.

I think that's because i've not really bought into gender being a set thing

Datun · 23/11/2017 16:21

I can understand AGP individuals promoting the cult of transgenderism, as it legitimises their fetish. And they can practice it in plain sight.

I can understand MRAs enjoying the bullying of women and therefore parroting the phrases to get up women’s noses.

I can understand vulnerable libfems’ slavish adherence.

But what I can’t understand, is everyone else.

Midwives, the women’s equality party, universities.

People who see and analyse sexism on a day-to-day basis. People who understand the importance of critical thought.

They seem to genuinely buy into it. Rather than jumping on it for nefarious reasons.

pisacake · 23/11/2017 16:21

Datun, Rambukkana is a real peach

www.wlu.ca/academics/faculties/faculty-of-arts/faculty-profiles/nathan-rambukkana/index.html

"my research addresses topics such as digital intimacies, the relationship of intimacy and privilege, hybridity and mixed-race identities, the social and cultural aspects new media forms, and non/monogamy in the public sphere. It is situated disciplinarily at the nexus of communication and cultural studies; methodologically within discourse analysis; and draws theoretical energy from a wide range of sources such as feminist, queer, postcolonial, and critical race theories; semiotics, affect theory, event theory and psychoanalysis."

"My work centres the cultural study of discourse, politics and identities. I track flows of discourse as they move in and out of the public sphere influencing both individual and group identities, embodiments, and politics—both within cultural groupings and between those groups and the larger structures of society.

Specifically, my research addresses topics such as digital intimacies, the relationship of intimacy and privilege, hybridity and mixed-race identities, the social and cultural aspects new media forms, and non/monogamy in the public sphere. It is situated disciplinarily at the nexus of communication and cultural studies; methodologically within discourse analysis; and draws theoretical energy from a wide range of sources such as feminist, queer, postcolonial, and critical race theories; semiotics, affect theory, event theory and psychoanalysis.

My book, Fraught Intimacies: Non/Monogamy in the Public Sphere (UBC Press, 2015) explores the increased mediation of non-monogamies since the early nineties—in every medium from television, to film, to self-help books, to the Internet—and how such convergent mediation opens these discourses up to societal scrutiny, as well as transformation. By exploring the privileged logics that frame our conceptions of intimacy, I explore the political and cultural implications of how we frame non-monogamy broadly in sexual discourse, as well as how the public sphere presences of three major forms of non-monogamy (adultery, polygamy and polyamory) display a complex relationship with “intimate privilege,” an emergent state in which one’s intimacies are read as viable, ethical or even real.

My new research is on the history of digital intimacies. This project investigates the intimate potentials and problematics of social media forms, drawing critical insights from intimacy theory (a subset of queer theory), but extending its ambit to consider multiple forms of digitally mediated togetherness. This project employs discourse analysis in combination with digital humanities methodologies to investigate past, existing, and emerging forms of digitally mediated intimacy. These include such topics as hashtags as technosocial assemblages; MMOs and avatar infidelity; the politics of race-activist hashtags such as #Ferguson; haptics and digital touching; and the emerging sex robot industry. In conjunction with this project I also edited the collection Hashtag Publics: The Power and Politics of Discursive Networks (Digital Formations series, Peter Lang, 2015). This collection investigates the diversity of publics that hashtags address, with politics and positionalities ranging from subcultural and community maintenance; to speaking back to state, corporate and societal power and privilege."

What a load of bollocks.

Datun · 23/11/2017 16:26

pisacake

Did you hear him on the tape?

Frankly, he could have saved himself a lot of bother and just introduced both himself and his book as Wankery, by Mr Wanker.

LemonJello · 23/11/2017 16:27

I've seen a few feminists posit that transgenderism is the first stage in the coming transhumanist movement; by conceptually severing humans from our bio sex, we set the stage for humanity to 'transcend' biology altogether

Yes!!! These were my thoughts exactly but I didn’t know the term transhumanist! I think transgenderisn absolutely is a ‘softening up’ for the concept of digital/ mental reality transcending physical reality. And I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the stakeholders currently lobbying turn out to be tech giants.
Thanks!

C8H10N4O2 · 23/11/2017 16:33

And I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the stakeholders currently lobbying turn out to be tech giants

Oh absolutely they are - generally wealthy white men from that industry. However I've not seen evidence that the transhumanists from that industry overlap with them - mostly they seem interested in personal immortality rather than sex.

GracielaSabrocita · 23/11/2017 16:35

A friend was banging on about how she likes Scandinavian noir stuff but it has a "very white, cis narrative, which concerns me"

I would struggle to keep a straight face were someone to say that to me. Wrong on so many levels, as the saying goes.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 23/11/2017 16:35

Since you ask has form for popping up on these threads, offering one line blanket condemnations, then disappearing.
Because she has nothing more to offer.
I can’t think why she bothers.

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