To think this is sexual harassment

[DesmondsDiner]

I have a 14 year old daughter who attends a mixed school. She likes the academic side of school well enough but hates the social side. Her class is predominantly boys and they all, bar none, talk about sex and porn all the time. Deliberately within the girls hearing or at them (eg have you ever done this? Sort of comment) they gesticulate obscenely behind the teachers backs (all the teachers are female) and talk obscenely about the teachers. As you can imagine it is hard to get my daughter to give explicit examples as she is embarrassed partly and also does not want any attention drawn to herself at school if I say anything. However, the teachers struggle to deal with this particular class so punish them all as a whole. They have been labelled as a problem group even though most of the girls are quiet, good students. Most of the boys are good students too but I guess peer pressure has even the more gentle ones joining in this talk.
I want to speak to the school about it (eg if the adult teachers cannot cope how are the students meant to know how to handle it). I wish my dd had the courage to say: stop talking like that, it is offensive. But she doesn't. She says she is invisible to the boys as she is very quiet but it doesn't mean she doesn't hear and see what they are doing. I imagine if this behaviour were in an office setting it would not be acceptable, so in a school setting where she cannot get up and leave, it should be even less acceptable.
These boys are not bad kids (I know most of them and their families as it is a small community) but do not seem to grasp how inappropriate their behaviour is. Would I be reasonable to ask the school to tackle this? Or should my dd just put up and shut up?

YANBU.

Make a very strident complaint in writing. Make it clear that you want to see some plans in place to combat this.

It's GOT TO BE STAMPED OUT NOW!

These boys will go on into the workplace and carry this shite on.

Thank you, I will do that. I needed a bit of perspective on this as it has been going on for three years and is getting worse, not better.

if this were a work place they'd have been hauled over hot coals by now (one hopes)
I don't see why it should differ in the school environment.
I cannot believe that the school has put up with this and done nothing about it. that's really shocking.

You can't say that in an adult things would be different and use that as a bench mark. Of course things would be different - ADULT work in an office and you're talking about CHILDREN. Who do and say stupid things without thinking everyday, because they're not yet capable of rationalising like adults.

they are 14. I think they're perfectly able to know how their behaviour affects others. one off situations, yes I could understand. Repeated behaviour??? not so much
if nothing is done about it then they will continue into the workplace.
some of these young people in less than a year, could leave school and be in a workplace.

anyway, even if you take my comparison out, it's still unbelievable that nothing has been done about it.

The school should be filming those lessons if boys are making obscene gestures behind the backs of female teachers and treating the girls in the class like that.

The school should be filming those lessons if boys are making obscene gestures behind the backs of female teachers and treating the girls in the class like that.

Is that legal? Because if so, then yes - that's what needs to be done. It is absolutely sexual harassment for anyone to create an environment like that (male or female) where member of the opposite sex are expected to put up with continual objectification and obscenity.

How long has this been going on? What complaints to the school have you made so far? Are you in contact with the parents of any of the other girls about this, and is there another group your daughter could be moved to?

Yes, it's sexual harrassment. These boys are including your DD in sexual activity (talking about porn and sex) without her consent, and she should not have to put up with it.

Talk to the school. Don't be fobbed off with any "boys will be boys" nonsense. Tell them you will take it further if they won't.

Who do and say stupid things without thinking everyday, because they're not yet capable of rationalising like adults.

They're 14, not 6. And the adults in this situation - the school management - much like management do in a workplace situation, have a responsibility to create a harmonious and peaceful working environment.

Children are in school to learn. And one of the thing it is reasonable for them to learn (if somehow they have made it to 14 with such delinquent parenting that they haven't found out already) that making obscene gestures and talking performatively about porn and sexual acts is entirely unacceptable.

It's legal if they tell them they're doing it. If they film and the boys are too intimidated by that to make the obscene gestures, then that's great.

I guess the fastest way is for your daughter to change classrooms?
Or maybe the principal could spilt the boys up into different classrooms, that way at least they won't have their friends to join in when they act out

You can't just shuffle classrooms like that, though.

The obvious thing is to stop them doing it, not inconvenience the girls by getting them to swap rooms. And if all the boys were taught together they'd still be sexually harassing the female teachers.

Please tell the school. This absolutely has to be addressed and stamped out. Zero tolerance. You can stress that you want the complaint to be anonymous as your dd is trying to stay beneath the radar and not draw attention to herself. That, in itself, is bad for her intellectual development. It's one of the reasons that girls do better in single-sex education. But it's bad for boys, too, to allow this sort of culture to take root.

Is there a woman in the pastoral team? I shouldn't have to say this, but you would probably get a more sympathetic reaction from her.

Is your daughter able to talk to a trusted teacher first, before you approach the school, to tell them what's happening and how it's making her and other pupils feel? Maybe you could attend a meeting with her for support but she (nor anyone) definitely shouldn't be exposed to this sort of behaviour.

This needs clamping down on right away and the perpetrators dealing with, but I think that it would be more effective if your DD gave a first hand account of what's happening, with your support, and with it being clear to the school that you'll take it further if it's not effectively dealt with.

if this were a work place they'd have been hauled over hot coals by now (one hopes)
I don't see why it should differ in the school environment.
I cannot believe that the school has put up with this and done nothing about it. that's really shocking

Going to follow this thread, I’m very concerned that this is a cultural problem at my dd’s school. She is only in yr7 but has heard explicit talk like this, usually from older boys in the library/ break. Things she had never heard about like porn and anal sex are now things I need to talk to her about. She’s even been “asked out” by a 14 yr old boy who claimed after he was only being friendly. She’s 11 ffs! Horrified at this just two months into secondary school.

City that is a shit attitude.

These teenagers...because that's what they are, need to be taught what's right and wrong.

Racism is now treated VERY differently in schools to how it was in the past.

It's time sexual harrasment was the same.

I would say it should be met with an imediate exclusion.

Anne why the HELL should OP's child move classes?

No. She's done nothing wrong.

The perpetrators should move. And be warned...with the entire school that this sort of language and behaviour will mean exclusion in future.

Please do speak to the school. They should be encouraging your daughter and her peers to take an empowered stance against this behaviour, and they should be clamping down on the boys involved.

FWIW, I went to a school where sexual harassment was rife. It didn't stop at comments. Boys used to shove their hands up my shirt or skirt, and I had my skirt pulled up from behind on numerous occasions. It was horrendous. I just accepted it at the time, because I thought that was what adult life was like. I didn't speak up because it was really a kind of bullying and anything that made you stick out made you a target. I would be around 70% certain that the harassment of some girls in your daughter's classes isn't stopping at the verbal but has actually become physical.

The thing is, the licence given to boys in the school concealed a wider problem of attitudes to women that also permeated the teaching staff. Some (not all) male teachers treated female pupils like sex objects. Two of them - TWO! - have gone to prison for it. One was a PE teacher whom we all knew was dodgy. I'm not saying the same is true of your daughter's school, but a "boys will be boys" attitude to this kind of thing can conceal even more disturbing attitudes.

Please do something.

We had similar problems with our daughter at that age. It was crap and made her miserable at school. We tried addressing it with school, but all we got back was 'Oh, boys will be boys' and 'We've just done an assembly on mutual respect, teamwork etc'. Utterly useless and still fills me with rage a few years later.

We moved her to an all girls school in the end, but we shouldn't have had to and I realise that it would not have been an option for everybody. Schools (and parents!) need to address this behaviour from boys properly.

And this is why I get really angry when people say ignore and minimise the social effects of misogyny and harrassment.

This is completely unacceptable and the school need to address it - not by forcing the girls to be separate, policing their clothing or behaviour, but by aggressively dealing with every incident of this behaviour. I went to an all girls school so didn't have to deal with this but I would have found it massively upsetting.

These girls should not be subjected to sexual harrassment, discussion of porn and sex acts, its changing their perception of normal behaviour and opening them up to abuse (how long before the boys start requesting nudes if they're not already)? The fact that these boys are treating the girls as accessories to their sexuality is so concerning - no wonder misogyny is rife.

Speak to the head. Speak to other parents. This is just vile and unacceptable. Complain about the fact that your daughter is being simultaneously harassed and punished for the boys behaviour and what a disgraceful lesson this is to the girls on the treatment they should accept as women.

YANBU

I remember how awful it was when I was in school and the constant sexualised comments from boys. I think it's much worse now with internet porn, which arms boys with a whole new repertoire of misogynistic obscenities to joke about.

It's a travesty that girls are just expected to put up with this in what is supposed to be a learning environment.

the whole bloody point is if we don't do anything about this in schools, then they will feel fucking entitled to do this
in the pub
in the street
at work
at their mates house
at a conference
on a train

ETC ETC ETC

I think that calling it sexually harassment is going a bit far. Harassment implies that they do it with the intention of making your DD uncomfortable as opposed to woth the intention of impressing the other boys not caring if it makes other people uncomfortable. YANBU to talk to the school though. They are really failing the boys by allowing this kind of lad culture to thrive.