Was this lorry driver BU?

[Abingdon]

I have just got home and am still a little shaken up so excuse me if I forget some of the details here.

I was driving home from work and on a steep hill, heading downhill. At the bottom of the hill is a set of traffic lights, and a 4-way box junction.

I was waiting quite far back in the queue near the top of the hill, waiting for the traffic lights to go green. They did, and traffic started moving forwards so we all accelerated towards the junction. As I approached the junction the lights started to change. I could probably have made it across just in time before they turned red, but I could see that my exit on the other side of the box junction was not clear so I decided to stop at the lights. Admittedly, I did stop fairly sharpish, but it wasn't overly violent. It's not like it was an emergency stop, just a bit more sudden than I would have liked.

As I stopped I looked in my rear-view mirror and saw a lorry hurtling towards me! There was still a fair bit of space between us but he was still going way too fast, I have no idea whether he had even seen me stop or not by this point.

Anyway, the lorry driver must have slammed hard on the breaks because he did manage to stop RIGHT behind my car. Having seen him coming at me so fast I did also move forward over the lines to try to give him more space.
The lorry did not ever touch my car, but as he came to a stop I heard the most almighty crash, which turned out to be the goods he was carrying. At this point, the driver gets out of the cab approaches my window and starts screaming and swearing at me, calling me names, saying I'm stupid and shouldn't be driving etc etc. It was absolutely terrifying. He is at least twice my age and probably about 4 times my size and he was being extremely intimidating. I did wind down my window a little to try to talk to him but I couldn't get a word in over his tirade.

While he was yelling, the lights turned green and the line of traffic behind us starting honking their horns and getting impatient. So I then carried on driving, went over the box junction and pulled over in the bus lay-by a little up the road. The lorry driver RAN back to his lorry and followed me. I guess he thought I was trying to drive off completely or something?

Once we were both in the lay-by he started demanding my insurance information saying he would "make sure I didn't get away with this". I was so shocked at the whole situation that I gave my details to him, and eventually got his from him. But this whole situation took about 40mins, with him yelling at me the entire time.

So I guess what I'm asking is who was in the wrong here? My understanding is that had he gone into the back of me he would have been at fault anyway, so I'm not sure how he can be so adamant that I am to blame? Also, the fact that our vehicles never even made contact makes me think I was really stupid to exchange details with him. Did I do the right thing?
He kept talking about the expensive cargo he had, and I'm now worried he is going to try to claim that from my insurance somehow? I can't afford for my premiums to go up, especially when I'm almost sure this wasn't my fault.

I haven't called my insurance yet but will do when I've calmed down. In the meantime, can some one please tell me whether I'm in the wrong or not? I want to be fully prepared when I talk to the insurance company.

Sorry Chrys2017 That's what I meant when I mentioned the hill. I knew that the distance would be a lot longer, but still thought there was enough space. Especially considering we had been stationary not long before waiting for the lights to change.
But I do take your point and have thought about defensive driving courses before. It's been years since my test/pass plus so I guess it couldn't hurt to get a bit of an update/safer driving skills. At least it will teach me whether I'm in the right or wrong if this ever comes up again

Defensive driving is about keeping yourself safe regardless of whether the actions of other drivers are correct or not.

By breaking the law?

Op my df was a lorry driver. He gave me some brilliant advice when I past my test. He said always read the road. So your not just watching the car in front your looking ahead. You slow down and break before the immediate car in front does. It sounds to me that not only was he not reading the road and being high up there’s no excuses for this but he was not paying attention also.

Please ignore the suggestions that you do a 'defensive driving' course. I cursed someone the other day who suddenly braked without warning or indicating. However, on reflection, had I hit the car then it would be me in the wrong.

I hate feel8ng shaken up when you're driving ng, especially ally when it wasn't your fault.

Why did you pull over into the lay by though? I would have driven off pretty sharpish and got away from the lorry preferably diverting into a quiet cul de sac when his lorry could get into

If it was break the law or get squashed SoupDragon I'm afraid I'd break the law every time.

She didn't get squashed.

@SoupDragon Technically she entered the box junction anyway, so the 'illegal' act was already committed.
But yes, if I had to choose between pissing off some stationery drivers by blocking the box junction, or being rammed in the back by a lorry, I would choose the latter!

@user1492877024 If the driver you encountered had done a defensive driving course, then he/she would not have braked suddenly with someone so close behind them.
And if you had done a defensive driving course, you would have left more room between your car and the vehicle in front.

So what you say seems like a pretty good advert for defensive driving!

Chrys2017 from the information given the only one in the scenario who needs a course to improve their driving sounds like the lorry driver!

The lorry driver should have been able to see traffic lights at the bottom of the hill and queued traffic across the other side of the junction, which tells any half decent driver to apply your brakes straight away to anticipate a potential change of lights.

If the lorry couldn't see that there was a hill then that must be because he wasn't paying attention which again is his fault.

Given the scenario described by the OP, in order to avoid a collision she actually moved forward over the white line which she should technically have stayed behind, the lorry driver just managed to avoid a collision, meaning if OPs car hadn't been there then the lorry driver would have had perhaps an extra half a car length of stopping distance to take him to the white line- that doesn't seem like it would require very much less braking to achieve.

So regardless of the OPs car being there, the lorry was going too fast down a hill he should have been braking on- this is not the OPs fault and she doesn't need to take a course because someone else wasn't paying attention!!

@Abingdon Good on you. You can't make sure there aren't any assholes on the road but you can better equip yourself to deal with them.

What a tosser!

I'm also annoyed that he was clearly intending on going through the amber (nearly red) light. One of my absolute pet hates is lorry drivers who driven dangerously. I mean ffs you could wipe out a whole family with not much effort. Take a bit of care please!

I have a relative who is a policeman and he explained that the reason they often don't stop at roundabouts etc is because it takes them a long time to get going again. Fuck that. Not my problem.

Some of you are completely missing the point. We're not debating who was in the wrong or right—we already know OP did not do anything wrong. My point is that other drivers WILL fuck up and having defensive driving skills will protect you from that.

Nope. The idiot behind would not need to brake suddenly had he left enough space behind. End of.

There was no accident, which makes things far, far easier for you. You are in the right. No need to contact your insurers, indeed you didn't even need to pull over. (If I was certain there hadn't been an impact, I certainly would not have pulled over - I would have driven on knowing he couldn't easily catch me up.)

But by all means report him to the police for road rage. Let them and his employers throw the book at him.

He was definitely in the wrong. If you were going to be sitting in the box junction then where did he think he would be sitting?
Sounds like he's used the opportunity to intimidate you to make himself feel better.

Ring your insurer anyway so they are aware he might try something on, get pics of your car to prove no contact was made.
I'd also contact his employer if you can get that info.

If we already know the op did nothing wrong then why on earth would she invest in a course?

An amber light DOES NOT mean stop if it is safe to do so, it means STOP and nothing else. You may proceed through an amber light if you have started to cross the stop line. You did absolutely nothing wrong and the lorry driver is a tosser. You have nothing to worry about or be sorry about.

Ok,the law says' owing to the presence of a motor vehicle on a (public)road,damage was caused to...'BUT it is not a road traffic collision.you did absolutely nothing wrong,the driver was clearly driving without due care and attention and too fast.
You had no requirement to exchange details.
He was panicking and trying to pass the responsibility for his bad driving onto you.
Is there cctv at locus?
Inform your insurance company as you have given him your details.
If you get any hassle personally from the driver then contact the police.
You can consider complaining to his employer about his attitude.

@Brahumbug Educate yourself

What do the traffic light colours mean?

A red traffic light means stop at or behind the white line (or where otherwise indicated). The white line is positioned so that pedestrians have room to cross in front of the waiting vehicles without becoming an obstacle to traffic travelling across the junction. The only time you can go through a red light is if a police officer directs you to do so.
A red and amber light together still means stop – don’t pass through it until green shows
An amber light means stop if you are able to. The amber light usually stays on for between 4-6 seconds to give all vehicles enough time to stop safely.
A flashing amber light is shown at a pedestrian crossing. It means you can go if it’s safe to do so (i.e. there are no pedestrians still crossing)
A green light means go if it is safe to do so (i.e. there are not pedestrians crossing) and there is space for your vehicle on the other side of the junction.
If the lights are out, proceed with caution as nobody has the right-of-way.

Agreed that the lorry driver was in the wrong - I would give my insurance company a heads up too in case he tries to claim that he did touch you and it's all your fault. I mean he's still wrong, even if he had hit you, but that might cause more issues.

Chrys, I agree with you that defensive driving is best, I work to improve my anticipation skills all the time and I would love to do a proper course, but I am not seeing that the OP did anything that a defensive driving course would help, here.

She stopped when there was no space after the box junction, she was safe to do so, she had looked and knew that the lorry was far away, and she chose not to obstruct other traffic and potentially cause other incidents by getting in their way - it sounds like the lorry driver was behaving more unpredictably than usual here.

Is there a course you could recommend?

This is the problem truckers face everyday, people believing big rigs can maneuver just like a car.

The OP wasn't in a position to make a judgement about what the lorry could or couldn't do. That was the sole responsibility of the lorry driver. He should have made allowances for the possibility that the lights would change and the car in front may stop when deciding how fast to proceed.

OP, if you think you may have been picked up on a camera for entering the yellow box, I would imagine a police report evidencing that you were trying to avoid an impact from the rear would be good evidence for you.

A defensive driving instructor would not recommend that you go through traffic lights against your better judgement and enter a yellow box where the exit wasn't clear just in case a vehicle behind has left insufficient stopping distance. You defended yourself by moving forward when it became clear that the lorry driver was going to struggle to stop. You could however have approached the lights more slowly which would have meant you didn't have to brake so hard. That could have improved the lorry driver's chances of stopping but it still wasn't your responsibility.

I think a defensive driving course is a great idea for any driver but you need to be clear that you were not at fault. The lorry driver may not have been paying attention or he may have intended to go through the lights behind you and block the yellow box. Either way, he was in the wrong.

@HermionesRightHook Unfortunately I can't recommend a specific course (it's been almost 30 years since I took my lessons) but as I recall most of the major driving schools offer 'advanced' courses.

Everyone driving on the roads has to be aware that at any time they may have to perform an emergency stop . If you are a professional driver with a vehicle with a greater stopping distance than the average car , you should be even more aware . He chose to blame you for his poor driving , doesn't make him right .

I had a close encounter with a lorry not too long ago; scared the heck out of me.

I was in the right lane of a notoriously busy A road, travelling in the left hand lane, minding my own business, when traffic slowed and came to a halt in front of me. So I came to a stop, as you do. Then looked in my rear view mirror ... and saw a lorry carrying along behind me, clearly not paying attention. He finally realized and braked, but I knew he didn't have enough room... I pulled up and to the right in the lane as far as I could go, and he braked and went onto the grassy shoulder (and probably scraped the safety rail in the process) and came to a stop next to me.

He would have seriously hurt or killed my kids in the back if he'd hit us, so I was just grateful he went for the grass and there was enough room to squeeze in there, and it was a squeeze! ... but I was also furious. There was no reason for any of it. He should have been paying attention, and I'd been driving in front of him for several miles as far as I could tell.