Is this a completely bonkers U-turn by the NHS?

[HappySecret]

My faster is well and truly flabbered. Can this be in any way reasonable? Justifiable?

From today's Times:

I have a chronic condition. When I had a flare up under Labour, I had a home visit the next day. Now, I have to wait ages to be seen. I have noticed a real change.

Interesting missy I had a two week cancer apt only last year, under this Conservative government. I didn't have acceptable maternity care in '98 under the last Labour government.

We laid more than £250,000 tax last year for f all. How much not would you like?

I remember when the last Labour government said all GP appointments would be within 48 hours. GPs just stopped allowing appointments to be made. You would ring up and they would say no sorry. Public targets are stupid and useless.

It's a false economy, which they know only too well.

Another small attempt to sabotage service so the tories can point it the failing NHS and people won't kick up too much of a fuss as they keep killing it off.

The GP appointment issue is because there are too many GP vacancies. Where there are no or few vacancies, people can get appointments easily. But there are overall a lot of vacancies, so other GPs end up taking on too many patients, and then you can't get an appointment.

This needs a wholesale review about how to get more GPs into vacancies and to put it into practice. No Government has done this.

The problem with all these other schemes mentioned is that they are free for 'those on benefits and the elderly'. I'm don't fall into either of those two categories but I couldn't afford anything like those insurance costs.

We don't have sky, we don't go abroad for holidays (we often don't have any holiday on a year), we don't eat out etc. What about those people? There is a big gap between those on benefits and those who can afford to pay for everything.

I have a mental health condition. At the moment I can go to my GP at the start of things not being right. We can tweak medication, look at ways of managing. I wouldn't do that if I had to pay because of the financial pressure on us as a family.

A lot of the comments here seem to come from real positions of privilege.

Yes, I'm sure that in theory even under a paid system the poorest would get free treatment.

But look at the reality of disability benefits in this country, and of benefits sanctions. There are so many people who should get help but do not.

Then you have the people just above that threshold,maybe they have a chronic condition and they can't afford to go for as many appointments as they need. Maybe they can't afford to go for every scan they need during pregnancy. There will absolutely be ramifications, in terms of people's health and costs overall, in this scenario.

Honestly if it does move to an insurance scheme, I may as well top myself. Even holiday insurance for 2 weeks is extortionate for me. I would not be able to afford it without putting my whole family into real poverty. The truth is that it is those with long term health conditions that will suffer. And I don't think most people will care - not really.

Interesting point tufted. My dd had MH issues CAMHS refused to accept her (actively cutting and taking small overdoses and anorexia). GP and CAMHS response. Get help by googling the internet. Absolute refusal to refer to an expert. The system stinks.

And what about people with serious mental health conditions like schizophrenia or psychotic bipolar? It can be difficult enough to persuade someone with this to seek medical help. If they have to pay, there is no chance.

But I am going to leave this thread now as it just upsets me. Because I don't think most people do care. They will just blame the chronically ill when they can't afford treatment.

Look at the state of dentistry now. Lots of nice dentists treating those who can afford private treatment. Not enough accepting NHS patients. Not even NHS emergency out of hours cover. Those with minimal incomes leaving it until their teeth are literally falling out.

Imagine that, but with all health issues. Mental health. Cancer. Diabetes. Endometriosis. Thyroid problems. High risk pregnancy. You name it. It's a recipe for disaster.

Raindrops That is because the criteria to be accepted is so high in some areas. Because there is not enough resources, and too much need.

The point is, it's not like the USA where if you're poor you have no healthcare

I know it's not what you're used to hearing, but 72 million low income people in the US have government paid medical care just from this program.

www.medicaid.gov/medicaid/eligibility/

Another 12 million or so get private insurance subsidized under the ACA. So it is possible to be poor in the US and have healthcare.

user1489679054

Your Aus vs Uk melanoma is not comparable at all

You can get an urgent GP appointment in the UK
You can visit a same day health centre and get referred/treated
You can get fast tracked to see a consultant

It’s just that your sister did not

I know people living in the US who only get emergency healthcare. So yes if they are stabbed they will get treated. Any chronic conditions, tough luck.
You can quote what you want, but when you actually know people in America who are poor, then you also know the reality of what they face,

Raindrops what you probably don’t appreciate is that in order to get the two week wait cancer patients seen now doctors and nurses are often working 7 days a week without a day off, DH does 14 day stretches regularly because of the pressure to see the cancer patients. Even so they often breach the two weeks. Staff are exhausted and getting ill or leaving.

Oh and we are higher rate tax payers ourselves, but willing to pay more if it was going to the NHS.

Funny that brasty. She got an assessment appointment. CAMHS is a 9-5 service. Because it suits the staff. We arrived at 9.20. Premises were completely locked because no staff turned in until 9.25 - we were on the doorstep. 25 mins x 10 staff = 4.5 hours. Phones were often on answering machine at 4.45 so another couple of hours. 9-5 service. 6.5 hours short per week when staff being paid for a full contractual service. That's about 8 assessments per week when there's a 79 day wait for assessment.

Do you really think That's good enough. Do you really think It's acceptable that staff aren't working their contractual hours? Do you think It's good enough that young people are suffering due to poor standards.

Surrey and Borders Partnership. Sadly no partnership with their vulnerable clients

I've never not got a same day GP appointment the last 10 yrs. Didn't have to claim emergency. I'm in Yorkshire.

My CMHT service is shocking now, since I last used it 5 years ago. I basically have to be psychotic or in crisis without family support. But my GP is excellent and my psychiatrist was brilliant.

Cancer services are the last to get cut in any area because they're one thing people will fight for, and because there are national referral guidelines regarding time scales.

Develop a chronic illness though and forget about it. Pain clinic here has recently been shut down - so no pain team referrals whatsoever. As someone with a chronic health condition I've seen things deteriorate rapidly in the last 6 years or so. I was at a Surgery where I had to book three weeks in advance. Since I've moved I can always get an appointment within five days at the most or sooner if urgent, so that depends on the practice and is a postcode lottery like so many other things.

And It's such a super duper service.

I'd pay more tax for a better service but I Don't believe it will ever be better whilst those in it think It's free and they are doing the unwashed a service.

Every time I see a Dr they introduce themselves as Dr this or that whilst using my first name. Why? It is insubordinate and the system has gone mad. What happened to equality? What happened to service? Oops I forgot I'm just an ingrate who must be grateful and deferential to these v important people who allow fellow humans to receive utterly shit standards of service.

Raindrops why are you insisting on slagging off NHS staff? You seriously think it’s the fault of the staff that the NHS is falling apart?

Oh hang on is your real name Jeremy Hunt?

Good Lord, those saying how wonderful the Australian system is have NO idea what they're talking about, because they have money! I don't even know where to begin.

1 - the Australian system is based on a population of 25m, not applicable to 65m. That is relevant.

2 - it works for those with money, of course.

3 - the number of gps who will see you for the government payment only "bulk billing" is the minority. I have many friends who wait to take even babies to the gp because they'll pay $30-40 a visit.

2 - prescriptions then cost far more - I've paid $25 for kids's antibiotics... my son's allergy medicine costs $100 a month. $50 of that is one prescription item.

3 - Going to a first consultant visit costs $220-$450 privately (which is what everyone is expected to do). You will get $110.25 back from the government. A follow up will be $150-$250 ish, with $36 back from the government.

If you want a public appt it will be weeks and weeks. My son was referred to a neurologist after something came up on a brain MRI (cost $550). The appointment was 3 months later. Once you have been seen, the criteria are much like this article. Eg you cannot be referred for a hip replacement until the pain/ mobility issues are impacting your daily living. Then the wait in our local hospital is 2 YEARS. Can you imagine what you're like by then?

5 - once you have spent $2000 in a year on medical fees, they will then pay most of your costs for the rest of the year... We have reached this point every year for for the last 10 years, and that is not uncommon. So, it is not unreasonable, from my own experience, to delay visits/ treatment, which ultimately ends up needing more care.

6 - There are a huge number of people stuck between well- paid and on benefits. They have to take out medical insurance otherwise they are taxed, butt medical insurance only pays for in- patient stuff, NOT gps and consultants, NOT x- rays or ultrasounds etc etc.

Finally, we have wards shut down for outbreaks, waiting lists, gag- inducing toilets, everything mentioned earlier, and we have a private system which is bolstered with government money. Be careful what you wish for.

I'm so sick of people thinking Australia is the promised land. And I say this as someone who can afford to pay for medical treatment.

raindrops seems to have a massive axe to grind.

Frankly, I think a significant proportion patients take the NHS utterly for granted because it is free at the point of delivery. They seem to be more entitled and make less effort and take less responsibility for their health. This has all been fuelled by the government and the media over many years. Also, the reality is that many in the population are net receivers rather than givers.

The NHS has plenty if short comings it's true but it has been shown to be the most cost effective system worldwide so the population will need to accept that it will cost them a lot more if they want change.

I think much of the problem missy is attitude. The attitude of too many staff that they think they are doing the public a favour.

I think Jeremy Hunt is doing a pretty good job in the circumstances actually. I Don't remember getting a better service between 1997 and 2010. In fact the service standards in my area declined significantly between 1994 and 1998. Are you aware what happened in 1997? I recall being unable to get a GP apt easily in the 1980s, I remember not having an accurate diagnosis of a chronic auto immune disease late 80's/early 90s until I paid. I remember vile midwives 1994/5.

This isn't about the conservatives, It's about deficiencies in the NHS which can't be addressed unless there are significant changes. Don't you agree lovey, darling, sweethart, mum. We don't address doctor's with that level of disrespect; why do nhs workers address patients (customers) in that insubordinate way? Serious question ducks.