Gender Fluid and Pregnancy

[LouBlue1507]

Genuinely curious here..

AIBU to ask what happens if a woman who is 'gender fluid' falls pregnant? Do they not claim maternity leave/pay because obviously that's a female's right but if you don't identify as a female, should they claim it?

Madonna expressed it better than I did. 9 months of discomfort and body dysmorphia might be an acceptable price for parenthood. That doesn't seem strange to me. I'm sure there are some FTM trans people for whom pregnancy would be intolerable under all circumstances. But I don't think the idea that some would choose to do it as a means to a child is outlandish.

I mean plenty of women are afraid of or squeamish about pregnancy for a variety of reasons, some extremely traumatic. And some of those women will still deliberately have babies because they really want kids.

I think changing your sex is a reaction to more than squeamishness. It has to be an inner hatred of yourself as you were born, surely? Why would you exaggerate the very thing you revile?

isn’t it all parental leave now anyway? Same terms apply whether it’s a mother or father taking the leave and pay

No it isn't. Maternity pay is for women only. men can't get it, nor can they take maternity leave. It's for women, the ones who make the babies.

I don't really give a fuck what people choose to call themselves, but if you are pregnant you're a woman, end of story. Enough with the madness of pretending men have babies.

No idea. As I said, I'm not trans. And the OP is about gender fluidity.

Trans has become too broad an umbrella to say anything very meaningful about it. The term can encompass

people who hate their sexed bodies and go to great and often painful lengths to change them (previously known as transexuals);

people who dislike the way that society treats them because of their sexed bodies and so look to change the way they are seen so they are perceived as the opposite sex (these individuals may or may not have gender dysphoria and may or may not have a variety of surgeries, hormone treatment but usually won't etc);

people who are escaping abuse or homophobia and see or are told that transition is the answer;

people who are reconnecting to a culture that includes some concept of a third sex/gender or two sexed/gendered individuals (in North America this will usually be described as two-spirited);

people who like cross dressing for a sexual kick (generally older men who while enjoying pretending to be what they think of as woman often really like women at all, sometimes referred to as autogynephiles or AGPs);

people who perceive that it is advantageous to claim a trans identity for a temporary or permanent benefit (whether that is access to a sports scholarship, changing room or prison) but probably have little or no dysphoria of any sort;

people who seem just to like to fuck up other people for a laugh (trolls really, some of whom are really just old fashioned misogynists);

and according to Stonewall people who are simply gender non conforming in any way (so most of us really).

who knows what those who claim they are gender fluid really believe. I've only met two adults who claim to be fluid, both were relatively young males with some history of trauma. One gentle and generally quite thought provoking, a champion of diversity and equality. The other was really just angry.

Crumbs - some women who choose to have kids are a lot more than squeamish too. I think you're setting a arbitrary limits on how trans people should feel and making assumptions about how much discomfort people will put up with to have a kid.

In addition you all that the original post is about people who are gender fluid, so people who don't feel entirely one gender or another. They'll probably be less likely to feel that inhabiting a more obviously female body is anathema.

I just don't understand why people insist on these made-up scenarios to mock people who are different to them. Trans/gender-fluid people are likely to have had a difficult enough time anyhow. Stop bullying them. And yes, I am a card-carrying feminist and yes, I have been pregnant and it didn't make me feel "womanly"- ewk.

It doesn't need to make you feel "womanly" whatever the fuck that means. It does however prove that you are a woman.

Nobody is bullying the "gender fluid" fgs. Their attention seeking nonsense can continue unabashed.

lovelycuppateas: although these made-up scenarios may seem implausible to you, the reality is that the proposed change in law may make these scenarios real.

Take the example of sex discrimination mentioned earlier - treating someone unfairly on the basis of their biological sex. At the moment it's illegal to sack a woman for being pregnant, because a man can't get pregnant, therefore a woman is being treated worse on the basis of her sex. There are lots of examples in law of "indirect discrimination" where a woman can claim unfair dismissal or discrimination because an employment rule affects women more than it affects men.

If you bring in a law that gives priority to gender self-identification, which says, in effect, that a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman, and a man is anyone who identifies as a man, then that undermines that indirect discrimination clause. And however fanciful or ridiculous you think that sounds, believe me there will be employment lawyers prepared to make that argument. If men can get pregnant, then sacking someone for being pregnant is - arguably - no longer discriminatory.

Other scenarios that may seem ridiculous but have actually happened including a male-bodied transgender woman savagely beating a female opponent in a boxing match, and violent sex offenders being moved to a women's prison because they identify as female. So far this is happening on a small scale but if the proposed legislation comes in, it will open the floodgates.

Returning to OP's original question, I read my employer's maternity and there is no mention of sex/gender anywhere - hence it wouldn't matter how you identified as long as you met criteria.

This sort of thing will lead to the downfall of civilisation. Mark my words.

The complications for me is if I treat a trans man as I would any other man I would not want them on a maternity ward, but the reality is it would not bother me as if I was being honest with myself I would still see the trans man as a woman especially if he is pregnant. I would hopefully be polite and try not to misgender but I would not be treating him as a man and I would be hypocritical if I said I was.

I read my employer's maternity and there is no mention of sex/gender anywhere - hence it wouldn't matter how you identified as long as you met criteria

Well there wouldn't be, since you don't need to refer to a sex when talking about maternity. It can only refer to women. So yes, it wouldn't matter how you identified as long as you had a foetus in your uterus and were actually a woman. Then you could get maternity leave/pay.

How you identify is immaterial, what matters is the biological reality.

Boulshired that sounds fucking exhausting. There's a guy in our local bus station thinks the pigeons are out to get him, he'd no doubt appreciate your love and support at this difficult time. The pigeons couldn't give a fuck about him, but he finds it's distressing.

YY lovely.

So much "othering" going on on this thread too. "They" this and "they" that, like gender fluid or trans people are one homogenous group. That's why these thought experiments are wrong, they deny the individuality of the people being discussed.

Want to know what happens when a gender fluid person gets pregnant? I don't know, how about we let the gender fluid person in question answer that when it happens. And if their response offends or encroaches on our logic or our feminism then let's have a debate about it, but sitting here pontificating about how absurd "they" would surely be about it is wrong. Seriously guys, it's wrong.

Maternity leave is about giving birth. You'll get it, no one gives a shit how you think you identify.

(That's the royal you obv)

Genuinely curious....if you're a woman (biologically) who doesn't identify as a woman what are you, what do you think you are? Not being rude, just a bit confused..I get Gay, I get Lesbian and I get Bisexual..but this 'identifying' terminology and the way it's now part of common everyday language has got me stumped. Enlighten me.

Well a man I guess. Or gender fluid= a nothing

I'm a woman who doesn't 'identify as a woman'. I am a woman, my sex is not an identity, it's a material reality. I identify with other women, which is why I'm a feminist, but that's about appreciating our shared biology and experiences. The other issue with 'identifying as' a women in a society that continually muddles sex and gender is that it's not clear what identifying as a women even means. To me it's an adult female (which I am) but to others it may be about feminine stereotypes (which I mostly don't conform to).

I'm not sure when people started saying that they 'identify as' (not just about gender) but I don't think it was a good thing. I read an article once that suggested it was because previous allegiances (like belonging to a faith community, society or even class) had become less meaningful to people and so they were looking for new ways to join or claim affiliation to groups. It's created a right mess though.

8pawsgood The clue is in the name: gender fluid. In other words, it's dynamic - you aren't 'tied' to a gender.

In my very honest opinion I think it's horse shit but I take the view that I should live and let live even though I think these sort of people are navel gazing twats thus it's not my place to judge .

Don't bother trying to understand it. Once we start to query whether biological facts can be re-written we lose all sense of what is what, therefore if you fancy identifying as a tree or an avocado tomorrow do so to your hearts content.

Oh blimey, I had two large G and Ts and asked a question the answer to which I almost knew I wouldn't understand. That'll teach me...(backs gracefully out of the room). Happy Weekend all.. x

Sorry 8paw! Really it depends who you ask. If you are gender critical (like me) then it's all baloney, but it is very important to some people.If it's someone who believes in this stuff then there are many genders you can call yourself, and places like Tumblr will describe them all. Here is a (fairly rude) and probably slightly out of date list. Take your pick!

SatelliteCity "Honestly though the idea that gender fluid people would refuse to engage with necessary basic social services and entitlements because they dislike the language used is absurd. Might they launch a campaign to change the standard language? Perhaps. Might that piss people off? Probably."

Well, the later is already happening. Not o the extent of erasing the words pregnant woman, but I think it would if some people got their way.

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/23/uk-lobbies-for-trans-rights-in-un-treaty-but-allows-contentious-pregnant-women-term

nooka that list is hilarious! "Perigender– Identifying with a gender, but not as that gender."

But I'm no on there! Oh yes, I am, but a bit disappointing... "Greygender– Has a gender at least partially outside the binary but it is weak and indefinable."

I get people wanting to dress outside convention norms for their birth sex. I get people wanting to participate in non traditional ways in society. I get people wanting same sex relationships. I too think live and let live.

Why though do we have to pretend the man dressed and behaving in a traditionally womanly manner is actually a woman?

I do think raising children without supporting them to develop an understanding and acceptance of their birth sex is highly damaging. Just as children need to learn to use cutlery or the lavatory, they need to learn to be men and women. I’m absolutely convinced part of the reason for the rise in mental health problems amongst teenagers is a failure to celebrate both femininity and masculinity. We create a huge tension and stress by trying to make men and women the same.