To think many ideas about invasion of 'women's spaces' place blame on the wrong people? (NOT a Trans thread!)

[BlueberryIce]

Recently I have read lots of debates about ‘women’s spaces’ and their use by various groups who many feel should not be using them, such as transsexuals, transvestites, other people who identify as female and older boys with SEN or older boys without SEN who would not be safe alone in the male facilities.

These debates are always framed as the erosion of women’s rights, women no longer having any safe spaces and the various groups above being accused and blamed for wanting to invade women’s spaces.

To me this seems totally illogical. To explain: (and yes, I’m aware I’m generalising and it doesn’t apply to everyone in these groups)

Women feel unsafe in men’s spaces
Boys are often unsafe in men’s spaces
Transsexuals feel unsafe in men’s spaces
Transvestites feel unsafe in men’s spaces
Women feel unsafe having a man in their space, which for many women includes trans** individuals and teenage boys.
Boys are often unsafe having a man in their space
And trans people don’t even have their own space.*

So clearly the problem is (some) MEN. So the fact that many people belonging to the above groups don’t want to share facilities with men and sadly are forced to find alternatives just to feel safe* seems to be a symptom rather than the root of the problem.

So AIBU to think what the flaming fuck are we doing unfairly blaming trans individuals and teenage boys for invading women’s spaces and thereby failing to address the root cause instead of putting the blame where it should lie; on violent and predatory men?

Is it not actually really tragic that we are blaming vulnerable or fringe groups in society for a problem caused by men? (Yes, I know a lot of people will come on to say that MTF trans are men and are both potential victims and attackers and I’d really rather avoid a massive Trans debate). Surely we need to focus on getting the message across that the behaviour of many men will not be tolerated?

As an aside, yes, I do have sympathy for women who are unhappy about a teenage boy / trans person being in their space. But I also feel we can’t expect teenage boys / trans people to never leave the house because they might have to either risk being assaulted or go into a space where they are not welcome. We need a different configuration of spaces so that everyone is able to use them happily.

AIBU to think that on a practical level it seems to be impossible to please everyone in terms of providing facilities which cater for some groups and not for others. It’s just not possible to provide 10 different types of changing room and toilet to keep everyone away from whichever men they don’t want to be around as well as the people who want everything to be unisex or self-identifying. So can’t we just agree that individual floor to ceiling cubicles with one of them set aside for disabled use are the most sensible and campaign for this?

I hope that makes sense, I’m crap at phrasing things properly. Also, I know it’s AIBU, but please be at least a bit gentle!

Yes. I am totally with you on the individual toilets. Great idea!
Now what do you suggest about rape crisis centres, hospitals, prisons, domestic violence refuges etc?

YABU,
Women are already fighting male violence and some of us are losing our lives to it.
It isn't our job to help men feel safe from other men (even if they wear dresses and call themselves sally).
I'll help men in dresses feel safer when all men stop raping, killing and beating us.

It’s not women’s problems to solve. Why is it always us that has to make space, move over, drop our boundaries to sort out male violence?

You said it yourself, it’s a predatory man problem. Not ours.

*i will interject in what I said and give context. By all men, I mean anybody with a penis (even if they wear a dress and call themselves sally or decide they identify as a purple unicorn). Eg, all "types" Not that every man is a murderer, rapist or woman beater.
Clarifying before someone jumps on me with NAMALT

“It’s not women’s problems to solve. Why is it always us that has to make space, move over, drop our boundaries to sort out male violence?

You said it yourself, it’s a predatory man problem. Not ours.”

Of course it shouldn’t be our problem to solve. It should be down to men to change their behaviour. But I think we all know that isn’t going to happen without pressure from women!

“Now what do you suggest about rape crisis centres, hospitals, prisons, domestic violence refuges etc?”

The same solution. More money invested to build more facilities. Maybe we need a trans prison / trans wings for example? And more rape crisis centres to cater for various groups?

“YABU,
Women are already fighting male violence and some of us are losing our lives to it.
It isn't our job to help men feel safe from other men (even if they wear dresses and call themselves sally).
I'll help men in dresses feel safer when all men stop raping, killing and beating us.”

I think that’s unfair, uncharitable and counter productive. I don’t want a trans person in my female space, but nor do I want them to come to harm because they’re forced to use a space in which they’re unsafe.

Neither do I. But that still doesn’t mean I buy the line, ‘well we all know men won’t deal with it so we will just have to’

Nope. It’s a male problem. One group of males doesn’t want to be attacked by another group of males.

Welcome to our world.

I don't think the op was trying to say it's a problem for women to solve - more that maybe we should not be attacking other groups of people that are not safe in men's spaces as it's not really their fault that men's spaces are unsafe.

I think the reason's for why men's spaces are unsafe are many and complex, we, everyone, as a society should work to fix them. This can happen but will take time. No quick fixes are going to work. Having individual floor to ceiling cubicles for toilets and changing is something that can be done now though and can help everyone to be safe in the meantime.

When it comes to refuges and the like, Trans people do need their own safe spaces. I think that the Trans community ought to respect that while they may experience gender as an innate essence not everyone else does and it's not fair to expect vulnerable women to just be comfortable with penises in their spaces just because they say they are women. And I do think a lot of trans people understand that.

I think we (women, transwoman, society in general really) could all do with a lot less having a go at each other and more empathy and compassion for each others lived experience (something the Trans community are always saying but don't seem to be able to extend to biological women) and work together for a solution that can suit everyone.

But of course the real issue - why are some men so violent and rapey? How is this going to be solved? I don't know the answer but I think working together as people (all people!) wanting the best for everyone is part of it.

How would it work? How is it possible to allow vulnerable men into women's spaces, but keep the abusive men out? Who would decide who is vulnerable?

I absolutely agree that Trans people should be protected. That may not have come across well in my post. I have huge compassion for them. I want to help.
I just fed up with the idea that one of the solutions has to be floor to ceiling cubicles. Where men can still hear women urinating, changing sanitary items etc. Pissing all over the seats, wanking in them after women have used them (no I’m not over reacting, twice in my old work place security have had to chuck men out for masturbating in the loos). Watching them as they get sanitary items from the machines. No longer will I be able to go into changing rooms with my friends and daughters, opening the curtains as one of us stands in some underwear or a dress and asks, “what do you think?” No no and no.

Just leave us alone. We are not man haters. Many like me have wonderful sons, husbands etc. But we have also been raped, abused, assaulted, had sexual remarks made to us day in day out for years. Not by a mixture of males and females but purely, 100% by men.

We KNOW NAMALT. We KNOW trans people also suffer. We don’t want that. But PLEASE leave our spaces alone. Completely.

Would you ask a minority ethnic support group to accept white people? To mix less freely in their groups so that white people could escape threats from white supremacists in their community? No. It would be a white persons issue to solve with support, but not behavioural change.

Bit of an ‘out there’ example granted. But it’s the same principle.

Even if we just focus on toilet design it's not really the easy solution that some seem to think. I doubt that it would be an easy fix to convert all existing multiple cubical single sex to unisex loos and, I would suspect that one of the end results would be fewer loos for all in most buildings.

I'm absolutely fine (and I think most women probably would be too) with secure single room loos that are for use by all (so long as they are regularly cleaned) where they open onto a common area or corridor. I'd probably be OK with large busy loos being unisex if they had decent security and cleaning (ie a person on duty). I'm really not so comfortable with converting small single sex toilets (the ones with two or three cubicles of which there are many) into unisex toilets even with slightly more secure doors. I'm happy with the current single sex options to be honest, and I'd like to see what risks and benefits it brings to everyone before making expensive changes that probably won't even mollify the tiny group that are aggressively demanding change.

Trans people need protection from abuse, from all people, there is no doubt about that. But women also need protection, including protection from their rights being eroded.
I have been the victim of violent harassment and abuse, where the perpetrator was a trans woman. I knew her prior to her transition (so as a 6ft, 20St bloke with a violent past), and not long after she transitioned, she turned on me. I did not feel any less terrified because she was wearing a wig and a dress and called Jane (not real name) now, than I would have if I was being harassed and abused by the male she was previously. In fact, it was made worse because people took it far less seriously, I was told that the above feeling was transphobic, and she could now back me into small spaces like toilets.

Thing is though - trans identifying men are still men. Which means that although some will experience homophobic violence from other men, others of them ARE the violent dangerous men.
Men who fear violence from other men should be protected from that. But that's their problem to solve. I don't want a man in a woman's space because he fears violence from other men.

Everyone should be safe to be in whatever plave they go.

But everyone seems to have a million reasons as to why their ds/dh/df/db should be with the women instead.

One can only wonder if all this teaching of boys that their right trump those of girls is part of the problem.

Maybe if men realised there was no choice but to be in the men's space they might actually start to sort it out?

In case my point isn't clear. More should be done to protect people from violence and abuse from other people. One group's need for protection should not override another's. Gender neutral toilets can be done well, for example, but it costs money to do it well. Please don't erode women's rights to mitigate financial costs.

I’ve just been in the toilets in the BRI hospital in central Bristol. Ten or so Unisex cubicles with two accessible and one baby change.

Floor to ceiling proper contained rooms with sinks and hand dryers.

Works really well. No angst and everyone covered.

Yes, the problem is undoubtedly male violence.

But that doesn't mean that the solution is to move the problem to the women's toilets/changing room/hospital wards etc

This seems a bit confused.

Yes, the root problem is male violence. And there's a masssive lack of any addressing of male violence. I absolutely agree this should be the focus. And absolutely there should be alternative safe provision made for those who are not safe in men's provisions, that are for those vulnerable groups, not just commandeering women's facilities. No one should have to be afraid of being harmed, particularly prisoners with no option but to be there.

But.

The issue is self identification into women's spaces, which removes the right of women to be outside of the presence of men. And it has far more serious, reaching consequences than just somewhere safe to pee, that massively affect the freedoms that women have been used to over the past few generations. It can't just be reduced to building a few more toilets and prison wings to end the discussion.

It's also the fact that the largest and most politically powerful minority group believe that to be offered alternative provisions that are not specifically existing womens spaces is unacceptable and hateful. Only full rights to appropriate all facilities and resources and be recognised as biological women is acceptable.

Surely we need to focus on getting the message across that the behaviour of many men will not be tolerated?

Except their behaviour is tolerated by society as a whole. So how on earth do you suggest "we" and by that I assume you mean women do that?!

Separate facilities are great in theory (resourcing aside) but you are ignoring the fact that many trans identifying males deliberately seek out women only spaces for validation.

They do not want and will not use third spaces. They see themselves as women and their demand is that they are treated no differently

I assumed that toilets weren’t floor to ceiling just in case someone (like a child) got stuck inside and it was easier to get them out.

Please don't erode women's rights to mitigate financial costs

And better security.

I'm just mystified at how anyone could claim that this isn't a "trans thread", to be honest

Yes. It is an issue the comes down to male violence.

Women have sex segregated spaces to keep them safe from that.

Other groups are entitled to campaign for their own.

They are not entitled to co-opt women’s spaces and charities that were fought and campaigned for.

It isn’t complicated. Expecting women just to move over and give up their space for men, regardless of their situation, it’s just another example of how the patriarchy has conditioned us to think women are the care givers and should put aside their own feelings to look after everyone else’s.

Personally I’d be ok with single room/self contained toilets as they mean whoever is using them is safe without encroaching on anyone else. But this doesn’t work with funding for charities and spaces in refuges, or hospital wings or prisons which is still a massive issue. The women using these services need help and understanding, not to be told their feelings don’t matter because a man with a cross dressing fetish is more important. We stepped aside for true transsexuals, those with deep seated dysphoria that go through painful surgery to present in the way they feel most comfortable and just want to live their lives, and I’m happy with that. They are welcome in women’s spaces as a courtesy. I’m not willing to step aside for a bloke twice my size that gets his kicks by wearing heels and lingerie and making women feel uncomfortable.

* Maybe we need a trans prison / trans wings for example?*

Absolutely, but the problem is, and it cannot be repeated enough: They. Don’t. Want. That.

TRAs don’t want their own wing, or their own changing rooms, or their own toilets. It isn’t about safety, it’s about validation, and they are the ones campaigning and leading policy change. The average trans person may be ok with a third space, indeed some are, but their voices aren’t heard and aren’t taken into account against how loudly the TRAs shout.

If the trans community begins a campaign for their own spaces, I will fully support it, insofar as it doesn’t detract from women’s funding. But that’s not what’s happening, because it’s not what they want. Until the TRAs change their demands they will not have my support, and my time and effort will be focussed on protecting the few spaces women have.