To think many ideas about invasion of 'women's spaces' place blame on the wrong people? (NOT a Trans thread!)

[BlueberryIce]

Recently I have read lots of debates about ‘women’s spaces’ and their use by various groups who many feel should not be using them, such as transsexuals, transvestites, other people who identify as female and older boys with SEN or older boys without SEN who would not be safe alone in the male facilities.

These debates are always framed as the erosion of women’s rights, women no longer having any safe spaces and the various groups above being accused and blamed for wanting to invade women’s spaces.

To me this seems totally illogical. To explain: (and yes, I’m aware I’m generalising and it doesn’t apply to everyone in these groups)

Women feel unsafe in men’s spaces
Boys are often unsafe in men’s spaces
Transsexuals feel unsafe in men’s spaces
Transvestites feel unsafe in men’s spaces
Women feel unsafe having a man in their space, which for many women includes trans** individuals and teenage boys.
Boys are often unsafe having a man in their space
And trans people don’t even have their own space.*

So clearly the problem is (some) MEN. So the fact that many people belonging to the above groups don’t want to share facilities with men and sadly are forced to find alternatives just to feel safe* seems to be a symptom rather than the root of the problem.

So AIBU to think what the flaming fuck are we doing unfairly blaming trans individuals and teenage boys for invading women’s spaces and thereby failing to address the root cause instead of putting the blame where it should lie; on violent and predatory men?

Is it not actually really tragic that we are blaming vulnerable or fringe groups in society for a problem caused by men? (Yes, I know a lot of people will come on to say that MTF trans are men and are both potential victims and attackers and I’d really rather avoid a massive Trans debate). Surely we need to focus on getting the message across that the behaviour of many men will not be tolerated?

As an aside, yes, I do have sympathy for women who are unhappy about a teenage boy / trans person being in their space. But I also feel we can’t expect teenage boys / trans people to never leave the house because they might have to either risk being assaulted or go into a space where they are not welcome. We need a different configuration of spaces so that everyone is able to use them happily.

AIBU to think that on a practical level it seems to be impossible to please everyone in terms of providing facilities which cater for some groups and not for others. It’s just not possible to provide 10 different types of changing room and toilet to keep everyone away from whichever men they don’t want to be around as well as the people who want everything to be unisex or self-identifying. So can’t we just agree that individual floor to ceiling cubicles with one of them set aside for disabled use are the most sensible and campaign for this?

I hope that makes sense, I’m crap at phrasing things properly. Also, I know it’s AIBU, but please be at least a bit gentle!

I think that it's a society problem.

Until we:

• stop treating men/boys as superior (as happens in some households)
• let boys learn how to talk though emotions and express how they feel in a constructive way
• stop trying to make/stereotype boys as tough, strong, not good with emotions, not have to deal with learning to behave because they are "spirited", label them as little monsters, etc
• let them play with stereotypical girls' toys without shouting at them, telling them that it makes them weak or a girl, etc
• not let them get out of responsibilities (such as household chores, looking after children, etc)
• stop having most stories/films/TV programs where the men get to have all the fun and women are shown as weak, needing rescuing, just there for sex appeal and just second rate to men

Nothing will ever change.

I think most people are angry with the government on this issue currently, and that's exactly where the blame should lie. They are introducing a law that will remove safe spaces for vulnerable women/girls AND remove a lot of the medical and psychological support that is currently available to women or men wanting to transition. It is ill thought through and damaging. There needs to be safe spaces for EVERYONE and the best way to ensure that is through government legislation.

One thing I would like to challenge is this idea that there is a minority of violent and predatory men we should be worried about. I think this is inaccurate. Until we accept that the scale of the problem is because many sexual assaults and rapes are also committed by opportunistic 'normal' men. This is why women are predominantly assaulted by men that are know to them. if you get rid of safe spaces for natal women and girls you give opportunists more chances.

let them play with stereotypical girls' toys without shouting at them, telling them that it makes them weak or a girl, etc

Very good point. I've worked in nurseries for years. I've never met a mum that has a problem with her four year old son dressing up as a princess or wanting a doll for Christmas. I've met a shedload of dads who have very strong feelings about their four year old son doing those things. Dolls for Christmas are refused. Toys seen as 'girly' are taken away and not allowed. They get really upset about it.

Yes, the first layer of this is always 'you'll turn him gay' (give me strength).

But unpack what that really means, because the massive majority of those men aren't actually homophobic at all and happily work with gay staff without a second thought, and it's 'my son will not be a second class citizen, lower status male, I know what happens to those boys.'. Feminine is low status. Anything that is female associated is low status, because women are lower on the ladder than men . It's pure ingrained patriarchy.

So is the commandeering of women's spaces, women's language and women's rights to be apart from men, to have privacy when in situations where undressing is involved and many women feel vulnerable, and belittling and dismissing the views of many women saying they do not feel safe sharing a space with any male stranger who wants access to it. And unfortunately, buying into the whole package because it's charitable to make some loos gender neutral.

In fact and in practice so far, because budgets won't allow for a mass rebuilding of toilet spaces and one cubicle takes up far more space than a row of stalls, both the mens and womens toilets become uni sex in name, but in reality are toilets with urinals and toilets with cubicles. So a preserved space for men only, but everyone and his uncle can use the women's toilets.

“The issue is self identification into women's spaces, which removes the right of women to be outside of the presence of men.”

I agree it’s a problem.

“you are ignoring the fact that many trans identifying males deliberately seek out women only spaces for validation.

They do not want and will not use third spaces. They see themselves as women and their demand is that they are treated no differently”

I agree on this too. I think a lot of trans women would feel very sad to realise they’re not welcome in women’s facilities, but sadly I think the right of women to be safe trumps their right to feel validated so the message needs to be sent that trans people should be provided with proper facilities as it’s unreasonable for them to use ours.

I think most women would be accepting of fully transitioned women using women's only spaces. What the government is proposing is that any man who wants to identify as female will be able to do so just by filling in a form. Then, immediately, they will have access to women-only spaces. No need for psychological support or counselling through transition, no need to live as a woman, nothing. The system is so open to abuse. Sexual predators just have to fill in a form and - bingo - they have access to women's changing rooms, refuge centres and medical facilities. If you were going for a gynaecological exam and requested a female doctor, someone who had filled in the paperwork would count as one. Why the government can't see how dangerous it is, is beyond me.