To think STUFF should be gender neutral, not PEOPLE?

[NapQueen]

I read recently about a celeb who is raising her baby gender neutral and honestly wondered what the fuck she meant. Ive had a son and a daughter and tbh aside from their genitals they were the same.

I also get frustrated when I read about young kids identifying as male or female because they enjoy X or Y toy, activity or clothing style so clearly they must have been born in the wrong body.

I dont deny that there are some (few and far between) instances where people are severley distressed at their body and feel like it is wrong or needs changing.

But this whole thing is getting out of fucking hand. If you have a penis you are male, if you have a vagina you are female.

If you want to wear a dress, wear a sodding dress. If you find yourself a fan of football or car racing, enjoy the hobby. If you dont want to wwar make up and bic your head, go for it. All clothes, all toys, all interests for all people. Take the gender out of these not the people.

Agreed.

Yep, I'm with you on this one. Just don't get me started .....

Yes yes. I’ve been trying to articulate this in my mind for ages and you’ve hit the nail on the head.

Bringing up children to be gender-neutral sounds very 1984 and militant. But things, of course things should be for everybody.

You’re a genius OP

Yep. Spot on.

Agreed.
Can't imagine why someone feels the need to change their gender but can see why teenagers, especially, have a hard time with the hormonal hell and pressures of socially accepted behaviour as they leave childhood behind and enter the adult world.

It's weird to me but I try to have compassion.
I've asked loads of questions but some people shut me down for asking and call me prejudice.
It's all pretty complicated but I feel like an idiot for saying if everyone was free to wear whatever they like and not conform to the norms of gender then maybe people wouldn't feel so trapped.

Yes. Basically.

It’s the shit that surrounds the expectations of each sex that is the problem, not the sexes themselves.

Yes, I agree. But maybe people are just using the term 'gender neutral' meaning what we're talking about here?

But girls who are naturally more nurturing, for example, may be drawn to toys such as dolls. Boys with various hormones making them stronger and more aggressive can understand their impulses with play-acting and play-fighting.

Denying any sex-based differences does no one any favours.

The problem of course is that the word “gender” is used incorrectly and so the phrase “gender-neutral” for a person makes no sense because if gender is a social construct a person cannot identify with one or the other.

Girls naturally more nurturing?

Can you provide some sort of evidence base for that?

And for the idea that a pubescent boy is physically stronger and more aggressive than a girl? Because for example sewing patterns for clothing don’t differentiate until 128cm height, so boys and girls aren’t substantially physically different.

Also pre pubescent...

Sorry dailypolitics my comment above aimed to you.

How are prepubescent children more nurturing or aggressive depending on sex? As a scientist that’s not a picture I recognise as evidence based

I agree. My children have had children’s toys. They’ve chosen what they’ve wanted to play with, and we’ve accepted their choice. We’ve never assumed anything about our daughter playing with sword and shield, but discovered how much a plastic sword can bloody hurt. We’ve never assumed anything about our son playing with dolls, but been amazed by the brilliant stories he creates.

Yanbu. This is spot on

Agree !

Yep. I totally agree.

I find it rather disturbing that 'gender' seems to becoming defined as what you look like and what you like doing. Especially for women. This implies that if I like wearing trousers and playing with mud and meccano I must be a boy. Or I like playing with dolls (including action man) and wearing pink, I must be a girl.

Nurturing children may be drawn to dolls. Most of them may even be girls, that's ok - it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the nurturing boys.

Active children may be drawn to balls and climbing and wrestling and whatever. Many of them may be boys, and that's ok. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the active girls.

Some children like pink, some children like blue, some children like green, some children like sparkles, some children like fancy frilly, twirly bits. That's ok.

I’m increasingly finding the people who were raised in the way you described raising your children, don’t understand what this is all about. I was raised the same and like you, just don’t get it.

I think this has all come from people rebelling against being raised in a very gender stereotyped way. Maybe their parents/peers were very much ‘blue=boy, pink=girl’

This is what I think is causing the big divide by people who think it’s a brilliant new thing and people who are like ‘what are you taking about? I can be a woman and like sports!’

YANBU OP

@Anatidae clothes definitely differ prior to 128cm because I had to buy DD2 her age in boys clothes and the age higher in girls clothes. We never worried about the gender the clothes were aimed at, we just cared about what she wanted to wear.

I'm sure think were once described as uni-sex rather than gender neutral what changed.

OP this is the exact same thing I keep saying, I am finding this sudden wave of trans and gender neutral kind of odd, surely the biggest issue is we stereotype child of a certain sex's behaviour, maybe instead of find a solution we just stop stereotyping and through acceptance children growing up wouldn't be bothered by a boy in a dress or a girl playing girls and they'll find they balance as they get older. Rather than this desperation to pigeon hole a child to fit an ideal even if it means something huge like changing their sex

Agree!

But girls who are naturally more nurturing, for example, may be drawn to toys such as dolls. Boys with...

Perhaps but it’s the exponentiality of it all that’s infuriating. And the mutual exclusivity.

Girls like pink because berries. So let’s colour every fucking thing they own in 50 shades of pink.

Girls like playing with dolls so can’t like science.

Boys get logic. So let’s give girls empathy.

It makes no logical sense.

*things sorry not think

I completely agree with this, and I think pushing "feminine" stereotypes on girls is really damaging, and might be fuelling the rise in girls trying to opt out of womanhood. But concretely, what can we do about it? Are there specific brands or products we should boycott? For instance, Kinder introducing 'pink' and 'blue' eggs (where the girls systematically get a shitty princess or Barbie doll thing and the boys get a toy that you can actually play with), flimsy girl shoes vs sturdy boy shoes, clothes that are either Superman or Princess PinkOverdose?

mikeys

That’s because some shops cut the same height band in tighter cuts for girls.
There’s no reason for it physically- you’ll also notice that girls clothes generally in the bulk of shops are worse quality, less hard wearing etc.

Ironically I don’t remember pink overload from my 70s/80s childhood. I had lego, books, and more lego.

I DO remember lots of comments (not from my parents) about those not being girls toys, but I don’t remember acres of pink everywhere