To think STUFF should be gender neutral, not PEOPLE?

[NapQueen]

I read recently about a celeb who is raising her baby gender neutral and honestly wondered what the fuck she meant. Ive had a son and a daughter and tbh aside from their genitals they were the same.

I also get frustrated when I read about young kids identifying as male or female because they enjoy X or Y toy, activity or clothing style so clearly they must have been born in the wrong body.

I dont deny that there are some (few and far between) instances where people are severley distressed at their body and feel like it is wrong or needs changing.

But this whole thing is getting out of fucking hand. If you have a penis you are male, if you have a vagina you are female.

If you want to wear a dress, wear a sodding dress. If you find yourself a fan of football or car racing, enjoy the hobby. If you dont want to wwar make up and bic your head, go for it. All clothes, all toys, all interests for all people. Take the gender out of these not the people.

But girls who are naturally more nurturing, for example, may be drawn to toys such as dolls.

And some girls aren't remotely nurturing & would rather get excited over a coding course or new running trainers.

Definitely.

My ds cared for his doll way better than dd!
I played with cars.
It's like the ridiculous "if it's for boy it has to be blue, for a girl pink, princesses and footballers" madness of the last 15 years or so has come back to bite us!

OP I completely agree with you

and I find really worrying the current trend to ignore simple facts. Hopefully it's just a fashion and that won't stick, but in the meantime we are making life too difficult for our kids.

It's like the rubbish Eddie Izzard perpetuates nowadays - liking high heels & nail polish means he must have "girl genes".

Agree. It is very scary.

I totally agree, OP. It reminds me of this cartoon...

Yadnbu op, there seems to be such a confusion around the difference between gender and sex. Once you get it you start to see how Orwellian and I think quite scary the whole thing is. I feel there is a deep misogyny at work telling me I am no longer a woman and it is unaceptable for me to be feminine.

My mother and her girlfriend tried to bring me and my sister up as gender neutral, it was Fuckibg hideous.

1. there is no gender neutral people just think you’re a boy
2. it made me just want to be like the other little girls and it made me fetishise anything girly. when I grew up I went mental, wouldn’t leave the house without 6 inch heels on, tiny skirts, loads of make up.

I’ve calmed down now but me and my sister still love all the stuff we weren’t allowed as kids, in fact we’ve just come back from Disneyland where we stayed in the Disneyland hotel and had dinner with the princesses.

You can’t bring up a gender neutral child in a non gender neutral world.

Totally agree. Also with pp about the influence of how you were raised being an influence in current opinions. The toys I remember most from my childhood are Duplo/Lego, k'nex, mini boglins, Polly Pocket, dolls and jigsaw puzzles. Nobody told me what I should play with.

And things definitely weren't all pink. Lego was Lego was Lego. Now with Duplo there is a girls and boys starter pack. Exactly the same, except for one is nice normal colours and the other is about 15 shades of pink and purple.

OP you have articulated what I've been feeling for ages. I was a child of the 1970s, got a gun and train from Santa one year, had toy cars alongside dolls and tea sets. It was all just toys. My clothes were as hideous as any other child in the 1970s, cord trousers and woolly jumpers whether girl or boy!
My own children were little in the early 90s, and played with all sorts, didn't make a big deal of girl stuff or boys stuff. Daughter had as much blue as pink.
Now however the young kids i know seem to be given a role from babyhood. I'm very surprised at it, and by the strict division of toys.
Maybe when people were poorer we shared toys and clothes more between siblings and cousins of both sexs.

But girls who are naturally more nurturing, for example, may be drawn to toys such as dolls. Boys with various hormones making them stronger and more aggressive can understand their impulses with play-acting and play-fighting.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-40936719/gender-specific-toys-do-you-stereotype-children

same Anatidae I wasn't allowed scalextric as a kid as it was 'for boys' but the sea of pink today is nuts!!
I feel we have gone massively backwards.
We contradict ourselves completely..
Children to be exposed to imagery/themes through tv/internet/music/gaming before they are able to understand.....ideas of gender/sexuality before they are even of an age to know the difference....but wrapped in cotton wool physically...sanitised play... reach teens before they are allowed outdoors on their own...
It does make you wonder ...

I can't help thinking that this focus on 'gender' has made our society take a huge step backwards in terms of equality.

I wasn't allowed to play with mecchano growing up , because my dad said it 'wasn't for girls'. Now, I'd be allowed to play with it, but it would be pink and made of flimsy plastic. That isn't equality.

Exactly Jax

Back in about 91/92 I remembered playing in my living room with a few friends. We had the Barbie box tipped out and it covered the floor. Three ofnus sat amongst it playing for hours. One of the friends is a boy, and hos dad came to collect him, went bright red with rage and shouted "what the hell are you playing with?". Plucked him from the pile and dragged him home.

I dont know whats worse:
1991 - "you are a boy you shouldnt be playing with barbies"
2017 - "you are playing with a girls toy, clearly you want to live as a girl, lets fix that"

Yes OP, totally agree with you on every point. My son and daughter can play with whatever toys they want, and I won't be forcing any sort of 'stuff' stereotype on them. However, I won't be encouraging either of them to live as gender nuetral unless one of them makes that decision when they are old enough and mature enough to make a conscious decision to do so!

Totally agree op - it is nuts.

IfyouseeRitaMoreno the pink for berries is a red herring! Because until about 100 years ago pink was for boys and blue was for girls.

And berries are not all pink! Some are even blue!

My lovely neice is insistant on wearing clothes from the boys section and has recently got her hair cut very short. Whats a shame is that she had to choose between "boys" and "girls" clothes in the first place. Whats a shame is that people say "ooooo she is going to be picked on for this".

For what?? She is wearing clothes. Theres no change in who she is, or more imprtantly what she is. Which is a kick ass girl who knows what she likes and chooses to embrace it.

Yes, OP, you are quite right about how society has changed from hating effeminate boys to accepting them... as long as they become girls.

I didn’t feel that it was a bad thing to be a tomboy when I was growing up (70s/80s) but I think it may be less acceptable to be a boyish girl now with the obsession with all things pink.

Several years ago, my DD was invited to an exclusively female 4th birthday party that was described as a “Fairy Princess Party”. She wanted to go dressed as a clown. I made her aware that she’d be the only child not dressed as a fairy and/or princess but she insisted and had a great time.

My ex husband’s family still give her fucking Disney Princess stationery sets and fluffy pink crap. She’s ten years old and has never shown any interest in pink princess stuff. It infuriates me when adults who are close to a child still insist on treating them according to gender stereotypes rather than as human beings.

Agreed.

As a teen, I was footie mad and lived in my club jerseys. I has no desire to be a boy. As an adult, I'm still very much a woman, I love gaming and sci fi. Still no desire to be a man.

Completely agree, OP.

And it is a recent phenomenon, and it has been imposed by retailers.

Every single thing is gendered, not just clothes and toys. The sea of pink/blue is everywhere:

Duvets, pillowcases, wallpaper, curtains, backpacks, photoframes, phone covers, plastic plates, kids cutlery, water bottles, Wellington boots, umbrellas, candles, toiletries, bubble bath...

Kids cannot move a millimetre without encountering something that is telling them exactly on which side of the sex divide they belong.

And never the twain shall meet.

And when John Lewis decided to gender neutralise their kids’ clothing section people started eye rolling, and saying whatever next.

They entirely missed the point.

It frustrates me when people talk about transgenderism as celebrating diversity. Because it does the exact opposite.

It really is no surprise that kids are getting confused about gender.

A little boy who, quite naturally, is drawn towards something pink and sparkly (who wouldn’t be, we all love fireworks and rainbows), is soon getting the information, in no uncertain terms, that it’s for girls.

Despite the best efforts of many parents.

Yes, Yes, 1000 times yes!
Instead of the drive to embrace transgenderism, we should be accepting everyone for the unique people they are. Your son likes pink and dresses - awesome, he's a boy that likes pink. Not omg he must be a girl!

I think it's ridiculous to have 'girls' and 'boys' toys and clothes. I guess it's leftover from the Victorian era when girls played demurely with dolls and teasets, and wore pink frills and had their hair curled. I would rather my daughter aspires to be strong and clever than pretty!

It's time most clothes became gender neutral IMO. My friend gets negative comments sometimes when her son wears leggings or a pink top. My DD has been mistaken for a boy many times because she's wearing blue dungarees and a fleece in 'boys' colours!

But girls who are naturally more nurturing, for example, may be drawn to toys such as dolls

I know that’s what a lot of people think.

But then at exactly same time you put your son to bed surrounded by teddies, cuddling his favourite, and watch him the next morning playing with action men or super heroes.

All dolls. (But highly gendered, of course)