AIBU to think small zoos should be closed down.

[WellyBooties]

After seeing the news unfold about the escaped Lynx from Borth Wild Animal Kingdom, in Wales, I can't believe small operations such as these are still allowed to run.

The zoo in Borth had a lynx escape which had to be shot dead. Whilst this was happening the council decided to perform an inspection. In their haste to move the remaining lynx to a larger more suitable encloser another lynx was strangled to death.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-41964094

The owners only recently bought the place and have not come from a zoo background. They have no formal training. They have already run out of money and are crowdfunding in order to make necessary repairs.

AIBU to think it's time small zoos, who often don't have the expertise (or money) to look after the animals properly, were closed?

I agree with every word of that LanaKane.

I agree. There were all the issues at the zoo in Cumbria too where a high amount of animals were dying. It is highly specialised running a zoo so they should only be run be real experts.
I have mixed feelings about zoos, the conservation work is important such as that done by ZSL. I do like being able to see animals you would never normally see at close range but not sure how they feel about it. It pisses me off when people don't respect the animals eg. signs saying no flash photography but people still use the flash and let their kids bang on the glass-I did see someone at London zoo deal with those idiots no idea what she said to them but they were very sheepish afterwards.
Also the case at Copenhagen zoo where they killed a perfectly healthy giraffe, cut him up and fed him to the lions then apparently a few months later some of the lions were "culled".
Humans have messed the world up haven't they?

I refuse to go to Edinburgh zoo because of bloody pandas not a jot do I care if they have babies or not they cost 1 million £s to lease from China it is a flaming travesty.

I agree zoos should be really, really highly regulated, and some small zoos should be shut down. But not all zoos. Some like Durrell are responsible for some of the best conservation work out there.

I also have a soft spot for the little zoo on the Isle of Wight which doesn't breed anything, but which is essentially a retirement home for unwanted exotics. They've got a jaguar rescued from a drug dealer, a raccoon rescued from someone's conservatory, and a pair of white lions, and other big cats that can't be bred from, or are the result of other institutions' irresponsible breeding. They treat the animals well, and support conservation efforts abroad.

I feel very sorry for the pandas at Edinburgh if the indoor enclosure on the website is all it has , it’s like a very dull dungeon , especially compared to the enclosures at The Smithsonian zoo Washington . I don’t blame it for not getting pregnant with those living conditions .

The pandas do both have their own outside space at Edinburgh, although they lay inside and sleep a lot.
I'm not surprised they haven't had babies though.

The pandas in Washington look really happy , they are always climbing trees and paddling in their ponds , the ones in Edinburgh must be thinking they pulled the short straw .

I also have a soft spot for the little zoo on the Isle of Wight which doesn't breed anything, but which is essentially a retirement home for unwanted exotics. They've got a jaguar rescued from a drug dealer, a raccoon rescued from someone's conservatory, and a pair of white lions, and other big cats that can't be bred from, or are the result of other institutions' irresponsible breeding. They treat the animals well, and support conservation efforts abroad.

Sadly, there will always have to be rescues for exoctic or endangered creatures...Will Travers pointed out there is a vast, vast difference between, deliberately bredding animals in captivity, when they are unlikely to ever be freed, and simply rescuing animals from a life of shit at the hands of a wealthy Sheikh, or a drug dealer, or some stupid millionaire who thinks a tiger cub would make a cute pet.

The problem is with a lot of conservation breeding in zoos, is that many, many animals will never live anywhere but a shitty unnatural enclosure.

THe conservation money spent in zoos would be far, far better spent (and go a lot further) on developing conservation and protection programs in native environments, and on stopping things like wildlife poaching and habitat destruction.

And I hate the arguement of "but the kids will never see a lion in RL"...

No they won't, but being able to see a miserable and distressed lion means absolutely fuck all if there are none in the wild, does it??

They become reduced to sad living museum exhibits, while we merrily destroy the natural world, "cos it's alright innit? At least they're alive in zoos."

Oh and if anyones gutted at the thought at never seeing a "wild" animal upclose unless you can afford to go where they live.....

1. They are not here for our amusement. You have no right to see any animal at all.

2. We have an abundance of our own wildlife right here, which mostly get ignored.

3. We'd still have our own "wild" animals if we hadn't hunted them all to extinction on this island.....Wild boar, wolves, bears....we had all these things.

The only zoos that should operate a responsible zoos that can demonstrate that their animals are kept healthy and happy in suitable habitats and that the public and patrons are also kept safe. This doesn't necessarily preclude small zoos from operating but it does mean that small zoos should stick to small/few animals. Every zoo must be run by trained and experienced professionals.

Also for those who are not keen on zoos what exactly do you want to do with the animals? May have been bred in captivity and could not survive in the wild (many endangered species are dependant on zoos to prevent extinction through breeding programs and publicity for wild populations). Zoos may seem cruel, they often are cruel but a well run zoo provides an invaluable service both to animals and to people.

No one has said 'oh set them all free'.

That would be stupid. But rescue and rehabilitation only. No breeding. Current zoo animals well cared for until they die.

Also for those who are not keen on zoos what exactly do you want to do with the animals? May have been bred in captivity and could not survive in the wild

I want them to stop breeding, and look after their animals until they die out, and not buy/acquire anymore.

(many endangered species are dependant on zoos to prevent extinction through breeding programs and publicity for wild populations)

Actually this is crap......

If we'd put money into native programs like the Kenyan national parks, zoos would be entirely pointless.

They are not "dependent" on zoos for survival, they are dependent on people realising that the best way to help them is to set up projects in their native lands.

Zoos are still, at their heart, about the ownership of animals, and peoples amusement at seeing an unusual animal up close.

And I'm sorry but I don't believe any animal leads an entirely healthy happy life in a zoo, even the best ones.

I just don't see how an animal with an innate instinct to roam hundreds or even thousands of miles can be happy in a couple of acres.

Zoos didn't start out of the goodness of peoples hearts, they started so rich people could show off about the weird and wonderful things they could collect.....we're talking the same generation that slaughtered millions of birds of paradise because they looked pretty on ladies hats ffs.

Even rescue centres and sanctuaries breed

Zoos are a Victorian concept aren't they. So people could go and gawp at exotic animals, a bit like you could go and gawp at people made to be in a freak show.

And this is all symptoms of a much much wider problem....

Take rainforests and orangutans....

If all the money we pumped into breeding them and keeping them in zoos, went into protecting their natural habitat, creating reserves, and breeding them there....they would be a lot better off (and in fact it would cost less)

But wait.......

Due to the huge amounts of money currently being made from things like palm oil, this idea isn't mooted much is it??

Because that would involve world wide corporations being told to pack it in, and I don't see that happening any time soon.

Part of the reason Kenya has succesful national parks is because the land they sit on doesn't really hold much wealth.

Try starting a park in the DR of Congo....over land rich in minerals....see where that gets you. (obviously there are many other factors here)

Would you really want species to die out Lana ?

Indonesia/malaysia have rescue centres full to bust with orangs and gibbons and no safe land to release them it is tragic

But the key bit there is "no land" MrsJayy

If we don't stop ripping down the land these species will end up as miserable living museum exhibits.

We need to find a way to stop all this shit.....if we could retake/regrow/reown/enable governemnts to do these things, we would be saving millions of animals.

Jersey Zoo aka Durrell Wildlife Conservation Trust contains mainly endangered animals and aims to understand them and their needs better. Some animals it aims to breed and return to the wild. Some as a backup where they only exist in one specific location and a natural (or man-made) disaster could wipe out the wild population.

By being open to the public zoos educate as well as entertain, hoping that people will become more aware of the relevant issues. By being open to the public they also get income. A zoo's costs aren't impacted much by visitors, but their income is massively increased by them.

Maybe in the long term zoos won't be needed, but a glib 'all zoos are bad' is too simplistic in my view.

(However I agree that small zoos are probably outdated. People should not be allowed zoo licenses without strict standards being met).

I’ve been to that one (while it was under its previous owners), and quite honestly didn’t think the enclosures were nearly big enough. Definitely don’t think you should be able to keep those sorts of animals without some sort of experience or background in it.

I’m not against well run zoos at all, I like Chester Zoo a lot as the enclosures seem well thought out and roomy. Hated London Zoo though, it felt far too cramped!

Incompetent zoos should be closed down.

Size does not necessarily bear any relation to competence.

As for the idea that the money is better spent on conservation of the natural world, it's not that simple. Unstable governments, armed militias with no qualms about murdering park rangers (at least 8 killed this year in Congo-Zaire), and corruption that will just swallow any money. Captive breeding has saved species from extinction and will continue to do so.

Yes zoos did start as entertainment, and still gain their revenues that way, but those revenues are now used to fund conservation efforts that otherwise just wouldn't happen. And no animal lives "an entirely healthy happy life" in the wild either.

the responsibility for licensing zoos shouldn't lie with local councils imo. There's no way each and every council in the UK has staff with the ability and knowledge to to know what should and shouldn't be acceptable in a zoo.

The focus on a zoo license should be much stricter, and a loss of license should happen much quicker. The situation that arose at the zoo in Cumbria (won't name them as they are very good at searching their own name and getting disucssions shut down) was an absolute disgrace. Animals suffered and staff were endangered repeatedly. Yet their license was renewed time and again, and the owner was allowed to circumnavigate the rules by adding directors and managers to his staff list whilst maintaining full control himself.

Any zoo can have one incident, just like any other place, but the problem (imo) is that an incident that costs an animal its life isn't a big deal so long as no people were hurt - which is wrong.

I agree with everything Lana posted.
Poor Lilleth

" Any zoo can have one incident "

yes but after Lilleth was killed, they were in such a panic about the other Lynx, Nilly, that they tried to move it to safer accommodation, because the inspectors were coming, and managed to strangle it to death in a catchpole. Untrained staff I am sure.

Also i know someone that worked there and lets just say the animals dont seem to get mucked out as often as you would hope