The Super Rich

[malificent7]

I watched two tv programmes on them last week. Many living in one of their many opulent palaces all saying they didnt think they should be taxed more.
Then all the news about off shore tax evasion. If i dont pay my taxes i get a court order from the council while i sit in my tiny rental.
Aibu to feel a tinsy bit annoyed? Nothing will change though will it?
Perhaps i nedx to work harder.

Someone raised secrecy issues. If you have a lot of money there is a higher risk of blackmail so eg you want your client's address not on the school address list. You don't want your house ownership available at Companies House on line and whilst someone on £30k might be happy others know their exact salary level and that they invest in a pension (and by the way the latest leak is of valid tax avoidance and investment from a reputable company, not liek the Panama Papers one and plenty of those investors are sensible British pension funds many of whom have mumsnetters as investors).

Also some people are just more private than others anyway and the more you have the less sensible it is to flash cash around and the more likely someone will marry your daughter for her inherited money so you want that family capital in trust only accessible by trustees. that trust of course can be in the UK but plenty of people live between different countries and just need one place abroad. Luxembourg in the EU is very popular.

@justrichmal ummm no I’m not. Quite the opposite if you read my post.

I fail to get worked up about this "issue".

If I could find a way to legitimately keep more of the wages I've earned then I would. I feel that I pay more than enough taxes at the moment, but that my taxes aren't being spend in the right manner.

Given the choice between saving an extra £1000 a year for myself or the Government ploughing it into one of the broken, bottomless pits that are hoovering up billions & misspending them already - I'd rather look after me & mine.

Everyone has an equal chance in this country. Everyone gets healthcare for free and education for free. Great, those things are handed to you. Do your homework, make good choices and you'll do well. Mess around and blame the rest of the world for your problems you'll end up being a loser. It is what it is

If you think that you are very naive.

Free healthcare = Fannying around trying not to spend the NHS budget on tests only sending you to A&E when you become so ill you cannot stand and are diagnosed as terminally ill on a trolley in A&E where you spend the next 16 hours.

Free education = Good school if your parents can afford to buy a house in the catchment area or the tutor to help you get into the better senior school otherwise you are left to scrabble for a place in the best of the rest.

And when you have done your homework and done your exams and got your degree you are left with either no debt because mummy and daddy have paid for all or you walk out with a £40k debt hanging around your shoulders.

So no I don't believe everyone is equal

Do you think using that personal allowance (which is a legal way to save tax just like putting some money off shore is) is immoral?

Sorry, I must have misinterpreted this.

Don't act like you wouldn't do the same if you could

It's not an act I wouldn't, and not everyone does. Not everyone values greed and cash above everything else.

@justrichmal thank you for apologising. Sometimes these threads get so het up and angry it’s actually restored my faith in MN to see an apology! Thank you don’t worry tho it’s easy I’m sure to misread stuff when scanning a huge thread.

I'm with the poster regarding access to free everything. Free medical, free education, free opportunity. And I've seen the poste who talks about mummy and daddy in such derogatory terms. Let me tell you something for nothing, the people who really earn and make money in this country are the immigrants, who have parents who value education, who work three jobs day and night to be able to afford the extra lessons; the music lessons, the language lessons, the extra tuition right from toddlerhood.

Statistically your average white working class boy from a single parent family goes no where fast simply because he doesn’t have a driven and motivated parent behind him. And those you despise so much, those posh middle class white privileged children will stagnate and be passed by academically and professionally by their Asian and Indian sub continental peers - who understand the benefit of education, and have a work ethic and don'e expect it all to be delivered on a plate.

On a whimsy I looked up the top 10 richest people in the UK. 8 from immigrant stock. 8 self made, 2 inherited family business, 9 state educated. 1 woman co-owner

StinkPickle, Thanks for the flowers, but what were you meaning then? That there should be no personal allowance because this is just another tax loophole as bad as offshoring?

"What have they had handed to them for free without having to work hard for it?"

Er, yes, that's the whole basis of capitalist accumulation. Profit is made by not paying workers the full value of their labour.

My experience amongst my Asian friends (from both the Middle East and south India and the Far East) is that their parents tended to be absolutely shit-hot on education, without exception. I went to a rather naice private school and even then I was fairly unique in being white and having parents who really pushed me to do well and who went mad if I got poor effort grades. Most of my friends had parents who just let them get on with it.

Some of my friends who are second generation immigrants have parents who are amazed at what we get in terms of a free education in this country - and how little some people seem to care about it. I have a black South African friend who told me he used to offer himself as hired muscle to protect the white kids in return for their school books as he wanted to learn so badly and their books were so much better - he simply couldn't believe what kids here get given and how little some of them are bothered about it.

I do think there is a tendency here to take it for granted and not to maximise it. The "heat magAzine gogglebox big brother anyone can be an instant sleb" culture doesn't help either!

are employed by a company based offshore who receives all their earnings, pays them the minimum wage on which they pay no tax or NI as it is under the thresholds and then the rest is returned to them as a loan ....which of course is never in fact repaid

Which is why it's a good job that the current government have been chasing these people and have proposed a new law that there'll be tax/nic on all outstanding loans in 2019. I.e. repay the loans before then, or face full tax/nic on the loan value outstanding. Contrary to popular belief, there's a hell of a lot of work happening behind the scenes to block the blatant tax evasion. Shame it's taken so long and shame that past governments turned a blind eye.

Bunny - And yet people still assume that the tories encourage tax loops and labour close them! Like everything else in politics, it's all on its head (or its arse) these days.

These were not super rich people but business owners who had started from the bottom and left school at 10

I doubt it if they were in the UK. Even before the war the school leaving age was 14, unless you are going to tell me that they are so old that they started their businesses in the mid 19th Century before we had compulsory education.

StinkPickle, this is a genuine thanks for posting. Although I cannot agree with equating personal allowance with off shoring, it has challenged my perception of the issue.

Which is why it's a good job that the current government have been chasing these people and have proposed a new law

The problem with the Tories is they have strangled the economy. Debt grows.

Tinkering around with these small measures will not change that.

They need to be braver. Osborne tried to abolish some charitable contributions tax relief and had to back down but he was right that plenty of the very rich use a pet charity to evade tax and not use it for charitable purposes. It is a loophole I would close and then if people want to give to charity they still can but without any tax relief.

Labour and the Tories for at least 100 years have been battling to deal with closing lawful tax avoidance plans and conduct. Even in the 1930s large estates were having to be given to the national Trust because the families could not affford the huge death duties as they were land rich but income poor. I don't really think this is a particularly new issue. Even Jesus was born en route to his father's home town because the Romans were forcing everyone home to be taxed.

I doubt it if they were in the UK. Even before the war the school leaving age was 14

Just because the school leaving age might have been 14 in reality a lot of children didn't go to school till when the government said the leaving age was definitely in the 1920s or 30s. My gf left school at age 10 because his dad had died in the flu epidemic and he was needed to bring a wage into the house.

Statistically your average white working class boy from a single parent family goes no where fast simply because he doesn’t have a driven and motivated parent behind him

The observation was on everyone being equal and I was pointing out that was not the case and you have proved my point.

Why only white working class boys with unmotivated parents being left behind why not white working class girls with unmotivated parents.
What is the difference between one section of society and another whose only difference is being female instead of male.

JustRichmal i just meant that there are many forms of LEGALLY minimising your tax bill. All of the ones in these Paradise Papers are legal.

Anyone in the UK on (for example) £16,000 would be counted as one of the world's super rich. So I'm arguing that If anyone on this thread that earns (for example) £16,000 and takes advantage of the tax avoidance scheme known as a "personal allowance" (instead of voluntarily paying tax on ALL their earnings) is a hypocrite if they are shouting that others shouldn't also use LEGAL methods to reduce their bills.

I think there is a lot of outrage when ALL OF US actually enjoy lowering our tax bill and we are ALL super-rich by global standards. We could all have one less biscuit a day and gift the proceeds to people less well off than us (or gift it to the gov't coffers). I'm just saying to those people to look in the mirror before throwing stones.

If these people don't want to pay tax, I wish they were at least more philanthropic. What do they actually DO with all that money?

Give me even £5 million and I could use a great deal of it to do good. If someone has £5 billion they could do soooo much.

Although we in the west are fortunate compared with much of the rest of the world, if we earn £16,000 a year, how does that support the case for the super rich stashing millions away in tax havens? Why can't they be satisfied with £16,000?

Yes, it would be good to see much more philanthropy - but I am sure for every Bill Gates there are at least 100 who aren't.