The Super Rich

[malificent7]

I watched two tv programmes on them last week. Many living in one of their many opulent palaces all saying they didnt think they should be taxed more.
Then all the news about off shore tax evasion. If i dont pay my taxes i get a court order from the council while i sit in my tiny rental.
Aibu to feel a tinsy bit annoyed? Nothing will change though will it?
Perhaps i nedx to work harder.

Yes of course you get tax breaks Peregrina.

You get your first x amount of income tax free, you get a tax break in your pension contributions and also in your childcare payments (I'm non UK so a bit out of date!)

Your ISA is also tax free.

They are all tax breaks which I presume you happily take advantage of

The effect an individual using these benefits is miniscule compared to the billions lost legally due to laws written to allow wealthy people to minimise tax

But the principle is exactly the same. And by comparison to the poor of the world/the UK you are rich (presumably), so why don't you give these tax breaks back and pay more?

I am afraid I regard it as a bit pathetic to lump things like ISAs, child care vouchers into the same bracket as tax avoidance. The benefit in kind is modest at best.

I am also sick of the argument that the wealthy work harder for their money and are wealth creators. David and Samantha Cameron are both extremely wealthy. I cannot be convinced that they worked especially hard to gain that wealth.

The apologists for these people on here are getting increasingly desperate with their wild attempts to justify the indefensible.

The indecent haste over Brexit as they try to rush us out of the EU before the planned crackdown on Tax havens is pure coincidence, of course .

makeourfuture yes I am talking about the top 1% or whatever. Those earning six figures usually or businesses worth a couple of million.

If you give it out, you should be able to take it imo

If it's legal, they are doing it legally. If you don't like the law, vote for someone who'll change it. But neither the tories or the Labour Party have done so over the last god knows how long. In fact I'd bet one of my (fully taxed) tenners that the blairs have some of their cash salted away in this sort of scheme!

Pipistrell, no it isn't the same!! Billions lost in tax are not the same as my 11.5k tax free income threshold! How can you compare the two? It's exactly people like you the rich love, defending their vested interests with the hope they'll throw you a bone. Comparing somone on 20k to a billionaire. Mind boggling

I would suggest anyone who has invested in an ISA, used childcare vouchers, salary sacrificed at work to get benefits(cycle to work, additional holidays, low emission cars etc) consider the effect of their tax avoidance too

Again. The topic here is Davos not Wolverhampton.

yes I am talking about the top 1% or whatever. Those earning six figures usually or businesses worth a couple of million

Davos. These peoples' PAs make six figures.

There is a moral difference, I think, between subsistence and surplus. We could, I imagine, fairly easily define a lifestyle that would be sufficient to satisfy basic wants with dignity in modern Britain - decent shelter, decent food, some surplus income to be able to have some experience of leisure, or to buy a child a birthday present. Once you start moving beyond that lifestyle, you start talking about wants and needs that are different in kind - no-one needs to drive a Roller, or be dressed head-to-toe in Gucci. And if you were comparing, the difference £20 a week would make to someone surviving in a lifestyle underneath that which is required to satisfy basic wants (and make no mistake about it, there are a lot of them in Britain) is far, far greater than the difference it would make to someone who is earning well in excess of what is required to meet basic wants. Money actually has different value, depending on the position and lifestyle of the person to whom it's given.

Tax on surplus wealth is therefore different from tax on basic wealth.

There’s a huge difference between people using tax incentives as intended and people squeezing the loopholes for all they’re worth. If you have to get a legal opinion on whether a “tax-planning” scheme is permissible before you go ahead then that’s a socking great clue that you’re on shaky ethical ground IMO.

"Throw me a bone"?!

lmao

Bang on whisky.

But peregrina unless you are bonus resident and non uk domiciled you wouldn’t save any tax by putting it offshore. Why, may I ask did you deliberately choose to invest in a tax avoidance structure (an ISA) rather than a normal savings account?

You get your first x amount of income tax free, you get a tax break in your pension contributions and also in your childcare payments

Those are set by the government. No one has to appoint an accountant to find them. No one pays tax on an income so small that it's hardly enough to live on. It applies to all.

It’s infuriating at a time when public sector workers have been told that there is no ‘magic money tree’, as a PP reminded us. My DH works for the Council as a civil engineer and we went through 6 years of no pay rises. He’s had a promotion in that time and in real terms we’re worse off than we were when the cap on salaries was put in place.

It’s not so bad for us, but for lower paid public sector workers it’s a nightmare.

Adviceplease, the cumulative effect of many individuals using these schemes will be far greater than uk Resident/don individuals using offshore investments. The former avoids tax the latter does not.

By the way, if you have a pension you most likely are partaking in one of these offshore investments somewhere along the line.

By the way, if you have a pension you most likely are partaking in one of these offshore investments somewhere along the line

And that will be used to shut people up. Most people have no idea where their pension money is invested. We have little if any control.

If it's legal, they are doing it legally. If you don't like the law, vote for someone who'll change it. But neither the tories or the Labour Party have done so over the last god knows how long.

Ironically, it's been the Tories who've been working hard behind the scenes and with other countries to plug the tax loopholes. Gordon Brown and Labour basically ignored it. A lot of loopholes have been closed in the last few years and there's been good progress on closing many more, including the "offshoring" - but of course, that needs the agreement of the other countries too, so it's not going to happen quickly. Shame the loophole closing didn't start 20 years ago!

I wantto be, so 10,000 people (random numbers) should loose a small benefit so one incredibly wealthy individual looses theirs?

There are so many issues in this. The basic one is the socialist one and is not really about tax at all.

1. Should some people have more money than others or should the state ensure whatever work people do they have the same money, house etc?

1. Should tax be very high on the very rich even if that means they pay less tax than at more reasonable fairer rates because even if the less well off have less money when taxes are high that is morally better all round?

1. Should we try to ensure a simple fair easy to follow tax system? Yes, all Governments try for this and fail miserably. It is not fair to say recent Governments of all kinds have not taken measures to change tax rules. They are trying very hard indeed. There is a non dom annual tax that did not used to be there. There is more transparency over limited company ownership on the companies house register with the new register of who controls a company. There is a new general avoidance tax rule. There has been a big crackdown on schemes which to most rich people look like evasion and were avoided but some silly people were taken in by the supposed huge benefits and have come unstuck. HMRC are doing raids and investigations into football at present and much else.

1. I don't agree that wealth is better in state than private hands by the way. Someone mentioned Mike Ashley and Sports direct and his workers. You could equally have mentioned Google or Microsoft workers who have a pretty nice life, perks, holidays, shares etc and also all the work Bill Gates is doing to eradicate malaria from the planet. More wealth in private hands can mean more good done than big state wasting it and spending it badly. Let people be trusted with their own money to spend it well and let us get taxes down for all to a much fairer level. I would say about a third 33% which is current basic rate tax and NI would be fair. I would apply that to companies too - 33% corporation tax instead of 19% and abolish employer NI. I would also merge tax and NI into that 33.3%. I would also have capital gains tax after inflation gains taxed at 33.3% too not 10%, 18%, 28%.

There’s a huge difference between people using tax incentives as intended and people squeezing the loopholes for all they’re worth. If you have to get a legal opinion on whether a “tax-planning” scheme is permissible before you go ahead then that’s a socking great clue that you’re on shaky ethical ground IMO

This. Exactly this.

Governments should do more and there are some things that could be changed, but in some cases it’s not as easy as it looks. An example is tax breaks for specific industries. These are in place to help stimulate and grow the economy productively. But a load of celebs used them to evade tax (as decided in a court case). Now, government got some back there but it’s exkebsuce fighting these cases and they will sometimes lose. So in some cases it can be a balance between a tax landscape that’s good for the economy overall and managing evasion. And don’t forget the wealthy employ the best tax accountants who will be earning multiples of the HMRC people trying fo stay one step ahead of them.

I personally think the tax system in the UK should be simplified but am no expert.

There used to be a poster called cinnabarred who was great on this stuff. I miss them!

To want to live in a fair, well functioning society is not envy. People who say this totally misunderstand the way others view the world. I don't respect or want extreme wealth and ridiculous amounts of material shit. I never ever look at someone with extreme wealth and wish it was me, in fact as long as they pay their taxes and don't exploit others I'm largely indifferent to them. I have an extremely comfortable life and would like others to have at least the basic levels of comforts too. I would rather live in a society where people aren't sleeping in doorways or children going to school hungry than have big cars and a mansion or whatever. And I don't even think these views are that left wing either, I just don't think extreme wealth and tax avoidance is a good thing for any society.