...... to think it is profoundly anti feminist to use the word "cunt"...

[BertrandRussell]

....to describe, for example, an abusive violent man? I find the idea that, when looking for a word to describe awful, awful behaviour, we use a word for women's genitals horribly misogynistic.

Or am I just stuck in the 70s?

BertrandRussell they may not have originally been unrelated at all, but over the hundreds of years have grown to have seperate meaning as many words have. That's how language works. For you to say 'cunt as an insult is also the exact same slang word for genitalia' there has to be a direct correlation. Historically to presently used as purely a derogatory term for women, or the meaning of the swear being the same as the slang (which they are not).

I’m absolutely appalled at the women on here trying to desperately and unconvincingly justify the usage of this mysogynistic word

I'm appalled at the amount of women who are overreacting to this subject in such an way, so determined to see it fitting a feminist agenda they can't beyond their own opinion.

I'm looking at the word from a linguistic point of view, and socially there is evidence that it is used within certain groups as a non-insulting term. Yes the word was original used as slang-medical for female genitalia, but again language changes. The reason it's the worst word can be more than 'it's just another way to bring women down'. Some words are just not naturally nice to hear, even ones that aren't swear words. Some have definite origins of misogyny but have also now a different definition, and sometimes words have a none-insulting meaning and are changed into such. Language changes.

That doesn't mean we should encourage children to call each other cunt, or use it in inappropriate situations. However, the more of a taboo you make a word, the more of a 'dare' it becomes to say it. We have a few words in our language that is just absolutely not ok to say (or even spell at times), they have a deep history of why they are 'terrible and unusable words'. If you feel cunt is one of those, absolutely fine. Just make sure you have your facts and evidence right when explaining that to your children.

'I’m absolutely appalled at the women on here trying to desperately and unconvincingly justify the usage of this mysogynistic word, I don’t even know if I feel I should hope they are men behind the keyboard. Which is worse?'
I haven't seen anyone justify it. I don't use it. I don't mix with anyone who does. The point many are making is it isn't an 'unfeminist' swear word. It is a crude word like fuck etc. < and there's obviously nothing wrong with sex either>. Correct definitions of swear words become irrelevant.

You said you use it anatomically, so if you don't use it when speaking to the doctor etc, when do you use it?

"You said you use it anatomically, so if you don't use it when speaking to the doctor etc, when do you use it?"

Sorry to be pedantic, but I said that I had no problem with it being used anatomically, not that I actually did use it.

At least, that's what I intended to say when I replied to "I'm a feminist, and whilst I certainly don't use it anatomically, I have no problem with it being used as a swear word" by saying that I thought of it the other way round......

"I'm appalled at the amount of women who are overreacting to this subject in such an way, so determined to see it fitting a feminist agenda they can't beyond their own opinion."

Ah yes, the old "overreacting" trope.

And coupled with "you obviously can't see beyond your own opinion because you haven't changed yours to agree with mine" argument........

From a linguistic perspective it’s very clear indeed that the use of this word as an obscene and crude word for genitalia is not something of days gone by, it’s clearly still in use today. It’s use as an offensive term is clearly linked to its definition.

If your doctor said to you, ok, I’m just going to check your cunt, you’d know exactly what he meant, you would not have to search the analls of history all confused.. You’d also probably complain due to perceiving it as obscene, the definition is clearly defined in all our minds.

Then using it as an insult is absolutely linked to its base definition. It can’t not be.

Yes there are tiny pockets of society who may use it as a term of endearment, like they might call their friends a bunch of bastards or fuckers, but that doesn’t mean the overwhelming majority do the same.

As said, words can be redefined, but let’s not pretend this is one of them. We know what it means and we know it’s common usage as an insult and the fact it’s linked to its definition.

Look, I'll give another example to try and make it easier to understand.

Fuck off, bugger off and piss off are all ways of telling people to go away. Bugger off is used light-heartedly, fuck off aggressively and viciously. It bears no correlation to the sex act they denote.

t bears no correlation to the sex act they denote

Don’t be be rildicoous, of course they do in the base case the definition is linked, however these words are more evolved and everyday common place than the word cunt, which has not evolved.

What are you advocating, cunt should be used as a common place insult but people start to say “ oh by the way, I’m trying to evolve the word, so could you not also think of it as a crude term for female genitalia”.

In addition it’s fuck, bugger is being used as part of a phrase. Not on its own.

It’s like arguing that calling someone a wanker has no link to actual masturbation. That the word has evolved. No it hasn’t. Neither has dick, or cock, or pussy.

Bluntness100

1. Nobody is denying that 'cunt' isn't used as slang for female genitalia anymore. What I'm saying is that, like many other words, it's one word with two (or more) definitions.

1. You are putting the word in quite ridiculous context to make your point, using inappropriate situations like with children or the doctors when you know those aren't situations where the word would be reasonably used. It makes you read like you cannot make a balanced or educated point on the matter.

1. No one thinks 'the overwhelming majority' use the word in an 'endearing way'. However, especially in younger cultures and in some pockets of the uk, it is used in this way and it's not deamed unusual - a vernacular of certain social groups if you like. Another example of language evolution.

1. Why do you believe the word cunt has not been 'redefined', or as I put it, have a secondary definition? Considering that the swear definition in no way correlates to female genitalia (unlike the slang 'pussy' where it's easy to see where the derogatory meaning is based), where is your linguistic evidence that they are one and the same thing in context? It's the same as the word 'fuck', as many have pointed out also has different meanings given a context. And context is key here, in all word usage - as they have zero meaning and use until you put them in a context, a sentence, a situation. That then determines what that word means. When I think 'cunt' about certain people, the image of female genitalia is not what comes to mind, it is only physically defined to the person (or thing) that the word is directed at. Does anyone actually think 'female genitalia' when using it as an insult? I'd be very surprised if so.

I’m absolutely appalled at the women on here trying to desperately and unconvincingly justify the usage of this mysogynistic word

A word is only racist, sexist or anything else-ist when it is used in that way. If use of the word cunt in a non-misogynist way becomes established, it will cease to be perceived by some as misogynist. No-one gets upset by berk or twat which mean the same as cunt and are also used as insults.

Look at the way that "black" has become acceptable after being reclaimed. When I was a child, black was insulting. And I like the way "queer" is being reclaimed by the gay community - one of my colleagues says "filthy queer" is used as a compliment among his friends, filthy meaning sexy.

If someone made "Proud to be a cunt" t-shirts, I'd probably buy one.

I’ve explained my view that they are intrinsically linked in the English language. If you wish to use the term and argue it’s not, then you go right ahead, you will be one of a minority, the overwhelming amount of people will see it as a crude term for female genitalia And a huge insult.

You don’t link it, fine, but you cannot deny the vast majority of the population will link it, just as they will disagree that cock or dick doesn’t mean a penis and pussy doesn’t mean a vagina..

"Look at the way that "black" has become acceptable after being reclaimed. When I was a child, black was insulting. And I like the way "queer" is being reclaimed by the gay community - one of my colleagues says "filthy queer" is used as a compliment among his friends, filthy meaning sexy."

The black being insulting thing is interesting. I am ancient and was brought up to use "black". But I was raised by libtards (see what I did there?)

I’ve explained my view that they are intrinsically linked in the English language.

Yes but 'your view' is not a proven one. You have become quite cross on here, even insinuating that anyone who can't see your opinion is 'right' as being misogynistic and probably men (I'm neither, FYI). So I personally would like some actual facts to you views, since you're obviously so passionate about it.

the overwhelming amount of people will see it as a crude term for female genitalia

Of course they will, when using it in the context of female genitalia. When using it as an insult or possibly a term of endearment, I would say the overwhelming majority would not be referring to genitalia, as that is not the meaning in the swearing sense.

Cunt can mean genitalia. Cunt can mean 'awful, much disliked person'. To say they are exactly the same word would suggest that they are interchangeable in any context - I've never heard a vagina called a 'much disliked person'. It seems to me you're trying to make it one word with one meaning just so you can be offended.

I was wondering the same thing the other day when I saw how often the word is used on here. I am not a big swearer, I was brought up to believe it is rude and that of someone has to resort to swear words, it means they have lost the argument. So I don't swear casually, only when I am really cross, apart from 'bloody' which I do overuse a tad maybe... I also have 2 kids of an age to copy swear words and ask what they mean. For that reason I actively try not to use sex or genitalia related swear words. Which kind of leaves me high and dry anyway which in itself is a bit sad. Why do we use sex/genitalia to insult?

For me,, the premise of the thread is that a word which explicitly and commonly means female genitalia should not also be used as a derogatory insult. And commonly seen as one of the worst insults there is. To use it as both is anti feminist. I agree with this premise.

You can Stamp out one or the other usages, but it’s anti feminist to use it and acknowledge its both.

You can Stamp out one or the other usages, but it’s anti feminist to use it and acknowledge its both.

How is 'cunt' in the swearing sense 'derogatory'? If in the swearing definition it doesn't mean vagina and calling a person a cunt doesn't mean vagina, once again you're confusing how words that look/sounds the same don't have the same meaning. I do not acknowledge the second meaning is (in the context of an insult) anything to do with a vagina. So how do you see it, as a separate definition, to be still referring to female parts?

What other words should we stomp out, because one (or both) meanings are based in derogatory or insulting meaning?

Hysterical
Retardation
Faggot
Gay
Pussy
Spotted Dick?

I knew of it as an insult long before knowing what it meant the same with twat

It really doesn’t bother me I don’t connect the two at all

If a man is called a prick, dick cock etc I don’t associate the insult with genitals or arse etc

I don’t see the use of the word as anti feminist language evolves

How is 'cunt' in the swearing sense 'derogatory'

Seriously? You’re grasping now. If you do not know that calling someone a cunt is a derogatory and deeply insulting word then you should not be on the thread.

Edmund- your list of words is interesting. Retard-or retardation- has, as far as I know been stamped out in any sort of civilised discourse. Hysterical needs to be used carefully-as you surely know it's often used to silence women or to discredit their arguments. Faggot, pussy and gay all have at least two meanings.
What is the other meaning of cunt, please?
Incidentally, good luck using spotted dick as an insult!

You can Stamp out one or the other usages, but it’s anti feminist to use it and acknowledge its both.

Of course it isn't.

I acknowledge that "fuck" means "have sex" and "oh shit" (I also acknowledge that "shit" means "faeces" and "arghhhhhh!"). It's not anti-sex to use fuck in the "oh shit" sense. It's not anti-defecation to use "shit" as "arghhhhhh!"

The difference with fuck and sbit is they are not gender related. Cunt is. That’s the whole point. It refers to female genitalia as a commonly accepted definition.

Retard-or retardation- has, as far as I know been stamped out in any sort of civilised discourse.

Better tell some scientists that, as it's definitely a term in physics. Whilst not used in everyday conversation, there is a case to say it has several definitions and not all derogatory.

As for using hysterical 'carefully', well that was exactly why I listed it. We know it was used as a way to suggest women were not of sound mind. However, again it now has a secondary meaning to be 'very funny/amusing', but some here (using the cunt argument) would suggest that because of the word's original negative connotations, then it can't possibly also mean 'funny' without adding the derogatory 'in the head'.

Edmund- the point is that the words you list have two distinct meanings.

Cunt doesn't. As far as I know.

Cunt doesn't. As far as I know

If it doesn't have to different meanings, then as I said previously the one word can be interchangeable. So your idea of 'cunt' both means 'insulting referring to a person as a vagina' and as s reverse, slang for female genitalia meaning 'a very unlikable person/one who has invoked anger/a crude friendly greeting to a friend'.

The word only has power because we perceive it to be worst of the worst. Technically it is no different from calling someone a twat. It compares also to describing someone as a knob, dick, bell-end, with the exception that use of the male genitalia as an insult doesn't carry the same patriarchal weight. Pussy, translated as "coward, wimp", differs again. Perception is all and therein lies its power.

I believe it derives from the term 'cunny', which was commonly used historically and in 'affectionate' terms, compariable to the modern 'fanny' (which in turn I assume is linked to fictional doxy 'Fanny Hill'....who incidentally refered to her fanny in the contemporary cunny)!

Cunt is a powerful word. I'm not sure I want it diminished. It's a good one to pull out of the bag when really riled. However, it's only what we make of it. If it were degraded to normal parlance, would another word rise to take it's place? Will demystifying the combination of these four letters remove their magical power to shock if 'cunt' joins our everyday vernacular?

Time will tell.

C U Next Tuesday :)