To have made a complaint to HR?

[soupforbrains]

I don’t want to drip feed so this might be a bit long sorry!

A little background for starters. I work for a large Italian company in the U.K. in a male dominated industry. The company has a number of ‘sub-companies’ which operate separately on different activities but which are often closely linked.

The company I work for owns our office building and one other of the Group companies ‘rents’ some floors in the building.

On Tuesday I was carrying out a task which involved checking the fire extinguisher types and locations throughout the whole building. All areas of all floors are accessed using key-cards and only people from the relevant company/project have access to each area.

One of our security guards, Bob, came with me to walk through the whole building top to bottom te ensure I could access all areas.

As I entered one of the areas used by the other company I paused to check my plans just outside the office of Mario whom I know, Mario gives me a cheery hello and I then continued to look at the plans to work out where to check.

Another employee let’s call him Luigi, walked past, and, nodding his head at me said to Mario “bordello”. Mario looks up from his work and says “eh?”. Luigi again nods at me and says again “bordello” before walking off.

I don’t speak much Italian, and in the moment wasn’t sure I had understood so quickly checked what I needed to and left the room. At which point Bob says to me with an eyebrows raised face “even I know what that word means”.

I felt a bit uncomfortable but still wasn’t sure what it meant so sort of brushed it off.

Yesterday I found it was still bothering me, so I looked it up, and bordello means brothel or whorehouse. Obviously this is very insulting/offensive.

In the male dominated environment I work in sometimes the ‘locker room” environment means people overstep lines, plus there is sometimes a linguistic/cultural difference and I have never before made a complaint. This is because A) all things a bit that have been said before I know were intended complimentarily/playfully and were just one party going a bit far or wording things in a way that comes across wrongly.
And B) anything which may have previously happened has happened with someone with whom I have a good working relationship and with whom I have no problem simply saying “no, that’s a bit far” or “you can’t say that” etc. No-one has ever ‘repeat offended’.

However I have lodged a formal complaint about this because I have never even spoken to Luigi AND there is no way at all that what he said could have been anything other than an offensive insult.

I mentioned this to a colleague who then asked what happened and their response was “it’s just a word”.

So, was I being unreasonable to have made a complaint?

*names have been changed throughout

Rhiannon they weren't speaking to her though. Am sure they did't speak their native language to each to deliberately exclude the OP - by using a word that's common enough in English anyway!

He didn’t call you a whore. From what you’ve said it sounds like he was saying something like “what a nightmare/palaver/disaster.”

Bordello used in the colloquial sense means , 'messy'. Like in our office, in Italy,where I work, if someone calls a job or a project a 'bordello', it means its gonna be a bit messy. The dictionary might say whorehouse but its a euphemism. Your colleague was probably referring to the fact that the office was messy or madhouse, ............you've misunderstood. ps my house often looks like a f°°°°° bordello when i get home !

Are you sure he was saying it about you, as it makes no sense

they weren't speaking to her though. No, exactly. They used another language to exclude her.

Am sure they did't speak their native language to each to deliberately exclude the OP I'm not sure about that and I don't know how anyone can be.

If the OP has misunderstood and they were just saying 'health and safety gone mad', then your argument that they were 'using a word that's common enough in English anyway' is null and void.

And, again if that's what they were saying, it is still rude and inappropriate to have said it in a language that excludes her. It'd be rude if two people in an English-speaking company gestured to a third who was doing their job of checking fire extinguishers and said 'health and safety gone mad', because the colleague would just be doing their job; but at least if they said it in a language all present understood, the one doing the checking would be able to laugh along (if they wanted to).

But you seem very sure that they used another language specifically to exclude her though.

You know, I honestly can't be bothered arguing with a stranger about what another stranger said to a third stranger and why.

I've worked in a number of multi-national environments, including an EU scientific research centre and a UN agency. In general, people endeavour to speak in a language that all of those present understand. In a social situation like the OP describes, for Luigi to comment in Italian would be seen as rude IMHO.

People certainly do switch to other languages for one-to-one conversations and for meetings, when they know that everyone speaks that language. They might also do so to explain something in more detail to one particular person, even if other people are there, but would tend to apologise to non speakers before doing this. I've worked in Italy and speak French, Italian and Spanish (plus can understand a bit of German mainly from eavesdropping on phone conversations at a German company) so not all English people are complete non-linguists.

In this case, I think it might well be that Luigi was using the word bordello in a non-prostitute sense of the word, e.g. tickbox exercise. However this does highlight why it is good practice to stick to languages everyone understands, as clearly in this case Bob thought it was an inappropriate remark and was unhappy that he thought someone had been offensive to you. Actually it is a bit offensive I think either way, as you were doing a necessary and useful task (Luigi wouldn't like it if all his documents were destroyed because no-one could put out a minor fire).

Bluntness100 I agree that being called a building would be extremely odd. But sometimes the micro-aggression of double-entendres speaks volumes. I Doubt he could have called her a 'whore' in it's actual sense.

Just a small anecdote - I've worked extensively on the continent. I speak a few different European languages but not all very fluently. I'm mixed race (this is relevant) - I once worked with a man who I overheard telling his colleague in another language that he'd never tried 'milk-chocolate' - fair enough, maybe he hadn't.

This persisted whenever I saw him and he would make references to 'milk-chocolate'. Another time he told his colleague whilst we were in the kitchen that he bets 'milk chocolate would be delicious'. I too assumed that I'd look like I'd lost it had I gone to HR complaining of being called a 'milk-chocolate' but lo- I eventually put in a complaint and he was disciplined. I've had a variation of this sort of thing over my working life in different scenarios so I think it's a valid complaint.

So only people who speak Madarin should work in (the Mandarin speaking parts of ) China then? Or only speak in front of people who share their native tongue? How does that work when your business is global? Maybe the OP's company should sack any workers who don't speak Italian?

I think you'll have trouble getting your business model off the ground, esp since the majority of the world's population don't have ears that melt if sullied by a word of foriegn.

OK, just to clarify, I generally have no problem with the Italians speaking Italian in the office, as others have said it's an Italian company and I am used to it. Generally speaking everyone is quite considerate about language barriers and speaking in front of others.

I never said he called me a whore, I said that he said the word bordello, which means brothel or whorehouse, to another male colleague while gesturing at me. There were no other words spoken so he wasn't saying corporate bordello, nor did I fail to pick up on the meaning on the rest of the sentence. To me it seemed that he was implying my presence in the room was turning it into a brothel.

I didn't feel confident confronting him at the time because I was a) flustered and b) 'Luigi' is part of senior management in that company and someone who as I say I have never spoken to before.

I have an Italian colleague in my department and ran the situation past her, she was shocked and said I should report it. I also informed my manager before taking it to HR. They both agreed with me and said it was inappropriate and should be mentioned to HR. I also spent some time considering whether to report it, hence the incident happening on Tuesday and my only reporting it today, but decided that as the insult was sticking in my mind and bothering me I needed to do something.

He didn’t call you a whore. From what you’ve said it sounds like he was saying something like “what a nightmare/palaver/disaster.”

This! It absolutely doesn't make sense to call someone a bordello! He probably meant "che bordello" which translates as above. I think you should have asked him what he meant before complaining actually.

They used another language to exclude her

Don’t be so ridiculous. People are allowed conversations, not everyone is the vicinity has the right to listen in and join in. That’s just rude.
“Used to exclude her”, what like she has a right to hear every conversation in her vicinity snd join in.

These people are Italian, it’s thr language they use to talk to each other day in day out. It’s ludicrous to suggest they should switch to English for personal conversations if a Brit is within ear shot so they can listen in. In this instance it was a daft comment about corporateness. They clearly weren’t calling her a building.

Honestly OP it was fine to speak to HR. If it was a misunderstanding they'll probably be glad of the opportunity to explain. They're not going to want you upset thinking they've been abusive if they haven't, and if they have then they deserve to be reprimanded.

What a massive fucking drip feed.

I'm out.

ladyflange thank you for this, that is useful information, my Italian colleague who I ran it past was unaware of this alternative meaning and did not tell me of this.

On the flip side the office was pristine, and he definitely gestured at me, so perhaps rather than implying i belong in a brothel he was just implying that I look a mess...

When I spoke to HR I pointed out that I wasn't after a witch hunt, just an enquiry and explanation or a pointer to him that it seemed inappropriate.

To me it seemed that he was implying my presence in the room was turning it into a brothel

This is a hugely serious allegation op. And a deeply offensive one towards the man if you are mistaken, which I suspect you are. If you are mistaken I would expect some action to be taken against you due to thr offensiveness of your allegation. If you’re right, then he obviously needs action against him. You will find out soon enough.

how is that a drip feed?

Fine to talk to HR, but I think pp are correct, bordello means 'what a mess/nightmare/how stupid' and I doubt very much he was attempting to insult you. I'd say it would be handy to learn a few words of Italian, but I'll no doubt be flamed for saying this in the U.K.

Oh bullshit. If it is a misunderstanding maybe they'll remind them that using a word, one translation of which is "whorehouse" whilst gesturing at a woman may be misconstrued.

No, it isn't a drip-feed.

Op, in your op you say you have lodged a formal complaint. Those are your exact words. You then try to soften it.

If you have lodged a formal complaint against this man saying you think he said you belong in a brothel or that your mere presence turns the place into a brothel it’s got enormous ramifications. On who those ramifications are will depend on whether you are right or wrong.

On the flip side the office was pristine, and he definitely gestured at me, so perhaps rather than implying i belong in a brothel he was just implying that I look a mess...

Not that type of mess! You seem determined to take offence.

In my company any complaint to HR is considered formal, hence my wording. But in this instance no formal disciplinary process can be initiated off my complaint because the man works for a different company (within the group). So while it IS a formal complaint it's not going to appear on his record, unless the HR team of his company investigate and agree there is an issue and then decide to discipline him.

allegretto sorry that was intended in a light-hearted way. I am in no way determined to take offense and will be happy to be proven wrong if that is the case.

Maelstrop if he was gesturing at the OP and saying what a mess/nightmare/how stupid, how is that ok??!! She was doing her job and checking fire extinguishers etc is far from a pointless activity and he had no place commenting on it.