Not knowing maths is not a badge of honour, is it?

[Fidoandacupoftea]

Over the years, some of my DDs classmates mums have mentioned that maths is beyond them, in a sort of 'boasting' manner, and the kids always get help from dads. I am not talking about dyspraxia or expect anyone to feel embarrassed about it. But surely it shouldn't be something to be proud of (not the right word I know), if we want to set examples for our DDs

OK

Never bothered me and I worked in a financial environment.

Have never had to use Pythagorus' theorem, nor any trigonometry either. Who does in a day to day life?

I obviously delegated when required lol.

OK: I used pythagoras a couple of weeks ago - I have a room with a sloping roof and needed to built in cabinets underneath it so needed to work out the roof height at different distances from the wall.

I also wanted to fit a wall mounted folding table which would be beside a sofa, and needed to work out what the maximum length of table I could fit was so it would fold down without hitting the sofa. More trig.

Dora - I know it's not the done thing to accuse people of trolling, but you seem to be wilfully ignoring answers that have already been given to your questions.

For example, you've just asked who uses Pythagoras and trig in daily life, but that has been addressed earlier.

Now you've admitted that you "delegated when required" (in a financial role), so presumably you had to rely on colleagues who were secure in their maths skills - how did you know they were getting it right? What would you have done if they hadn't had hours of practice with maths at school?

Oh, and you keep misspelling Pythagoras.

I could weep reading this thread! And I’m not even a pricing actuary, tee hee.

Other posters have given fantastic examples of uses of maths in everyday life, well beyond ‘adding up’ and checking whether you have been short changed in a shop.

Dora, you can actually use simultaneous equations - yes, algebra! - to work out who owes what in a restaurant when you’re splitting a bill but some people have had starters and some haven’t, etc. That’s a useful everyday skill, no?

However, surely maths is a beautiful subject in its own right? DadDadDad explained why rather eloquently, upthread. How narrow minded to studiously (or not!) ignore that all circles conform to a formula containing a number that goes on forever, for example, just because you won’t need to use Pi in the shops or the pub. Poor bloody Pythagoras (there, I’ve spelt his name correctly), Fermat, Riemann, Gauss etc. must be spinning in their graves!

The OP isn’t inviting people to be ashamed of not being good at maths after trying to be, by the way. She, like me and others on this thread, feels sad that some women deliberately adopt a ridiculous “oooh feather brained little old me! I’m no good at maths, me!” attitude as a default setting. I’ve seen some women do it because they think it’s feminine, or that it makes them less threatening, or whatever. I find it tragic.

I find it depressing on two fronts:

1. Reducing any area of knowledge to simple utility and quotidien functionality is a bit depressing. There's more to being able to read than just its use in picking out names of ingredients in a supermarket. It can be a source of joy, pleasure, relaxation, communication, insight - and builds into a dynamic and vibrant branch of knowledge. Likewise writing. Likewise Maths.

Human beings have the most amazing cultural capacities. Culture is the prosthetic aspect of us - part of what we are as well as an addition (perhaps best described as a necessary supplement). Maths is a beautiful and amazing cultural achievement, with a rich and fascinating history. It's depressing that people feel either disengaged from that or are simply dismissive of this.

1. From a utilitarian point of view, having poor mathematical skills is linked with a whole range of lower socio-economic effects - it has a huge impact on life-chances. More so than poor literacy skills. Maths matters.

As a culture, I do think we think it's OK to be 'bad at Maths'. I can't help but feel that if there were a cultural shift, fewer people would be 'bad at Maths'.

And I say that as someone who scored a 'u' in her Maths 'O' level first time round.

I did maths A level (many years ago). I use my maths skills daily as my job involves significant contextualising of data.
Statistical understanding is a basic all my staff need and they need to assimilate the information quickly, benchmark it and look for anomalies.
We’re talking means, modes, medians. We’re talking funnel graphs and extrapolation of trajectories. They need to do percentages very quickly and be able to compare levels where the numerator and denominator are different - so fractions as well. They need to understand the differences between raw data and corrected data. They may be able to use a calculator but this doesn’t help them understand what the numbers are saying.
My two medic daughters do mental drug calculations, estimates of weight, interpreting of test results, titration, they need to understand ratio to determine if changing results indicate a condition is worsening or improving etc.
My military son needs to be able to do speed distance time calculations, to understand ammunition trajectories somneeds to ‘get’ mental geometry. He needs to be able to calculate logistic requirements quickly to ensure the lads have enough fuel and water whilst minimising weight.
I can’t begin to explain how my chemist son uses maths.
But then who would use maths over and above counting to twenty with your socks off?

Dora a lot of jobs require more than basic maths which is why a lot of foreigners work in highly skilled professions in the U.K. Go into an investment bank and the majority of the trading desk will be European (particularly French). Same for jobs in health care. The lack of math skills in the general population is part of a skills crisis deeply affecting this country.

Also, I use geometry and advanced maths to work out things in my daily life (finances / DIY) etc. If you don't have math skills its impossible for you to understand how you could be applying them. Moreover, without solid math skills and a basic understanding of statistics, its very difficult to properly assess information out in the world.

Most importantly, studying advanced mathematics trains your mind in problem solving, logic etc.

I think there needs to be more Maths in general culture. There's a lot of reading in general culture and less Maths: fewer Maths games and logic puzzles for pleasure; less focus on the role of Maths in history. Or perhaps, there needs to be more recognition of the Maths and logic element of the games we do play (noughts and crosses, for example).

(And DadDad, I realise I did repeat a lot of what you have already said vis a vis culture.)

Nice comments here, HUH.

Well said, thecat. I'd also add the massive point that as well as being a great intellectual achievement of the human race, the truths of maths are independent of human thinking, so that makes their subtlety and beauty even more amazing.

An alien on the other side of the universe who measured the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter would come up with the same number as us, pi = 3.1415926...

And if that alien started calculating the following sum, he would be amazed / intrigued like us that as he calculated more and more terms it gets closer to that very same number, pi. Why?
4 - 4/3 + 4/5 - 4/7 + 4/9 - ...

I failed my gcse maths. Twice.
I always wanted to foster a love of maths in my children because I know how vital it is, so I decided not to tell them that I was rubbish at it. I told them I loved maths and that maths was the way forward if they wanted a rewarding career that paid well. My eldest girl got A * for her two maths GCSEs, full marks in her all AS levels (stem subjects) and is applying to Cambridge to study a stem subject.
I always felt that admitting how poor my own maths ability was, would set them up for failure. So I lied.

That's lovely, DadDadDad.

It was the premise, and a key plot point, of a SF book I just read, too, where Maths truths were the Rosetta Stone to unlock another language ('Sleeping Giants' - OK but a bit clunky, iyi).

Like many things these days its a stealth boast.

It usually means I'm amazingly artistic or I'm so alternative, man.

In reality some great writers and philosophers and mystics have been excellent mathematicians - thinking Simone Weil for one.

My wife told me off countless number of times for messing about with people in shops. I tended to give them some money, then gave them some more coins after they had entered it onto their till and then a couple of more coins, making sure that none the amount would be a nice amount and then asking for my change back. I always wanted to record the sheer confusion and helplessness so I can play it back when a student I teach or anyone ask me 'when do you use it in real life?'.

In many countries in the world, you would be ashamed to admit that you can't read or write or do simple Maths.

I just remembered this - link in case the picture doesn't upload: www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3641#comic

I loved maths at school.I have just had to relearn simultaneous equations to help dd.She has if not love maths at least found it not daunting.
My dds father has done the I have never read a novel,don't like reading though since she was little and sadly for all I took her to the library,read to her in bed because I worked and he worked from home he refused to listen to her read out loud and she was too tired when I got home.
The school decided she was a bad reader ,she is now 14,can read quite well but because she has never had a love of reading reads very few books or reads so sparodically. that she looses the story.This has impacted on her vocabulary.
Negativity from either parent can affect your child's learning and future chances in life.

I do have some sympathy with what Dora is saying but I set the bar higher for what constitutes basic and advanced maths.
I regularly use arithmetic, fractions, percentages etc. However, what I have never used is the stuff we were taught at GCSE that made me believe I was crap at maths. The stuff that made me ask to be moved down a set and feel really bad about myself. Things like proving Pi and quadratic equations. If anyone can name me a day-to-day, non-maths career use for being able to prove pi I'll eat my sombrero.

How is splitting a bill at a restaurant algebra? Serious question. I do sort of get what doras saying. I hated maths at school and have a job were I don't have to use it. I get it is important for lots of jobs but thankfully not mine.

Because you can use simultaneous equations, which are algebra, if you have decided to split the cost of the main courses. Try it at home.

This is a pet hate of mine and DH's! Why are so many people happy to boast about being crap at maths?! Of course not everyone will be good, but I suspect a lot of people's poor skills are down to a negative mindset and poor teaching.

For me there are two reasons why maths is a very valuable skill:

1. It is beautiful. I love that once something has been proven to be true then it will always be true in n dimensions. Euler's identity is perfection.

1. Being good at maths opens doors to high earning potential I learnt trig and Pythagoras at gcse, which lead me to a levels, to my maths degree, and to my job in the financial services. I use maths everyday, admittedly not Pythagoras but he was part of the path

This thread gets worse. Hidden Figures should be compulsory viewing for all girls. It's a good thing to be good at maths...

I'm ok at maths, passed GSCE with a B. I use maths via excel multiple times a day. Never use pi though.

However in the example from OP, I just think they're being self deprecating. I do this a lot. Women particularly are taught to be this way as its not attractive to boast in female friendships or male to female relationships.

Men on the other hand and encouraged to be the best and compete. They might not boast, but rarely are they self deprecating.

Very generalising I know and not all one rule fits all. But I work in a male dominated industry and when I do speak up to challenge with knowledge, I can feel im seen as aggressive. Whilst I'm not aggressive sometimes the way I'm dismissed makes me feel it frankly!

I have a female friend that is very boasty about her and her children's achievements. Drives me fucking nuts! Id rather self deprecation any day of the week frankly 😉

I bet few would say the same about reading and writing.

My dh is good at maths but me on the other hand, cannot even comprehend it! I absolutely HATE HATE HATE it lol

Not trying to be provocative here, but honestly, apart from adding, subtracting and multiplication, has anyone had to use Pythagorus theorem or algebra, or whatever in their daily lives?

I do. I remember it being a standing joke all the way through school, “when will we ever need all these equations after gcse”. Well my first week at uni was a proper light bulb moment, the task was to calculate the blood flow through an artery- i even needed pi to calculate the diameter.

I work in cancer research now and use maths every day.

Foojarbar- is a b at gcse “ok”? I think it’s pretty good, above average at least. I think this is part of the problem- if maths isn’t easy and we’re not getting all they questions right, then we aren’t “good” at maths. I got a b at gcse and i think i’m good at maths. I’m a bit slower maybe than those with brains that can grasp the concepts instantly and “see” the numbers and patterns in their minds, but i can make maths work for me.

And yes, it is a girl thing. I also find it’s more acceptable for me to say they don’t read, or they aren’t good at english. It starts in primary school.